Brake & Oil Line Assistance

[rdorman]

No need to disconnect the balance bar. Bleed one side front and rear at the same time. You could do it diagonal if you really wanted to be different! I never bleed the bottom bleeders... to each their own. I always 'bench' bleed the master cylinders when ever they are first installed. I just use the basic cup and hose at the calipers that you can make yourself or get dirt cheap at any parts store. Crack the bleeders only enough to let fluid out (to much and you will suck air around the bleeder threads on the return stroke, a little grease on the threads can help prevent this but I don't need it). Pump the pedal slowly with your hand and don't let the master cylinders run dry. Yep, no DOT 5... 3 or 4 is fine. Wilwood 570 is a good fluid, widely available and won't break the bank. You will have no trouble!

I don't recall if someone mentioned it our not but spin the oil pump with a drill to fill up all those lines and coolers before you fire it up.

[JeepSnake]

Not to hijack or go off on a tangent, but talk of breaking in an engine made me remember a video I saw some time back on Discovery or TLC.

Engine shop had a break-in stand with an electric motor for setting up engines before they were ever fired the first time. They were spinning the engine electrically to lash the valves, break-in the cam, etc. Once that was done, then they would install the carb, fire the engine, and make the other adjustments.

The thing that shocked me was how much noise the valvetrain made. I had always read and been told that it was a huge component of an engine's noise signature, but hearing the engine turn without any combustion, induction, or exhaust noise was amazing. A very, very loud buzzing from the valves, etc.!

[Naumoff]

Thanks for the suggestions..... I guess there's no "easy way" to do it.

Hire a midget.

[Naumoff]

Wilwood 570 for Brakes and HTOB. It is DOT 3. Good Stuff, No worries.

[pgermond]

Hire a midget.

Tony,

To be social correct, I believe they are called little people nowadays I'm saving the best for last - I replaced my clutch slave cylinder, replaced the nylon oil pressure line with copper, changed the oil and filter, changed the differential fluids....... and tomorrow....... change brake fluid

Sorry for high-jacking your topic Ric..... you'll get used to this group doing that from time-to-time

[Ric S.]

Every time one of my threads get high-jacked I learn even more about the building process than just my original question. You guys keep this up and I may just be ready by Homecoming. And, imagine my OMG meter had I filled the lines with DOT 5 and then asked the question !!!!

Thanks all.

[spd4me]

Dot 5 is a silicone brake fluid that is used in show cars or collector cars that aren't driven to prevent water from getting in lines and rusting. Isn't recommended in daily drivers. There is some deterorating connection between silicone and real rubber which many of the British cars use.
Bob

[Naumoff]

Dot 5 is a silicone brake fluid that is used in show cars or collector cars that aren't driven to prevent water from getting in lines and rusting. Isn't recommended in daily drivers. There is some deterorating connection between silicone and real rubber which many of the British cars use.
Bob

We had a problem with rubber o-rings in the plumbing trade. Some rubber is impregnated with a lubricant and if you introduce a different type of lubricant( say a petroleum based) to the seal it will have a reaction.
O-rings would swell up and keep a spout from moving.

On my clutch m/c and HTOB I can flush the line from the bleed on the HTOB. Just keep pouring brake fluid in the m/c. I have done the same on Foosh's clutch slave for his Cobra.
You still have to Bleed it to get it to work but the Wilwood master cylinders will let brake fluid run right through them.

This thread has reminded me that while I have down time on my Cobra to go ahead and change my brake fluid.

[Naumoff]

Tony,

To be social correct, I believe they are called little people nowadays I'm saving the best for last - I replaced my clutch slave cylinder, replaced the nylon oil pressure line with copper, changed the oil and filter, changed the differential fluids....... and tomorrow....... change brake fluid

Sorry for high-jacking your topic Ric..... you'll get used to this group doing that from time-to-time

Now I have to be socially correct too. I am a plumber, we a social outcast.
I don't think this can apply to me. Besides say midget and try not to smile.
It is one of those words that are fun to say.

[Brent]

Probable more useless info than anyone needs. I scanned a shop manual I have on brake systems.


SILICONE BASED FLUID
Fluids containing Silicone are generally used in military type vehicles and because Silicone based fluids will not damage painted surfaces they are also somewhat common in show cars.

Silicone-based fluids are regarded as DOT 5 fluids. They are highly compressible and can give the driver a feeling of a spongy pedal. The higher the brake system temperature the more the compressibility of the fluid and this increases the feeling of a spongy pedal.

Silicone based fluids are non-hydroscopic meaning that they will not absorb or mix with water. When water is present in the brake system it will create a water/fluid/water/fluid situation. Because water boils at approximately 212º F, the ability of the brake system to operate correctly decreases, and the steam created from boiling water adds air to the system. It is important to remember that water may be present in any brake system. Therefore silicone brake fluid lacks the ability to deal with moisture and will dramatically decrease a brake systems performance.

POLYGLYCOL ETHER BASED FLUIDS
Fluids containing Poly glycol ethers are regarded as DOT 3, 4, and DOT 5.1. These type fluids are hydroscopic meaning they have an ability to mix with water and still perform adequately. However, water will drastically reduce the boiling point of fluid. In a passenger car this is not an issue. In a racecar it is a major issue because as the boiling point decreases the performance ability of the fluid also decreases.

Poly glycol type fluids are 2 times less compressible than silicone type fluids, even when heated. Less compressibility of brake fluid will increase pedal feel. Changing fluid on a regular basis will greatly increase the performance of the brake system.

FLUID SPECIFICATIONS All brake fluids must meet federal standard #116. Under this standard is three Department of Transportation (DOT) minimal specifications for brake fluid. They are DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5.1 (for fluids based with Polyalkylene Glycol Ether) and DOT 5 (for Silicone based fluids).

MINIMAL boiling points for these specifications are as follows:



Dry Boiling Point Wet Boiling Point

DOT 3 401ºF 284º F

DOT 4 446º F 311º F
DOT 5 500º F 356º F
DOT 5.1 518º F 375º F







Racing brake fluids always exceeds the DOT specifications for dry boiling points. Wet boiling points generally remain the same.

DOT 3 VS. DOT 4 and 5.1
AFCO's 570º brake fluid is a DOT 3 type fluid. However, it has a dry boiling point that is 52º higher than DOT 5.1 specifications, 124º higher than DOT 4 specifications and 169º higher than DOT 3 specifications. AFCO's 570º fluid meets or exceeds all DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 lubrication, corrosion protection and viscosity specifications.

AFCO's 570º racing fluid meets but does not exceed federal standards for wet boiling point specification; therefore, its classification is DOT 3. Because AFCO's 570º fluid is intended for use in racing type brake systems that undergo frequent fluid changes, exceeding federal standards for wet boiling points is of little concern. Racing brake fluids always exceeds the DOT specifications for dry boiling points. Wet boiling points generally remain the same.

WET VS. DRY BOILING POINT
The term boiling point when used regarding brake fluid means the temperatures that brake fluid will begin to boil.

WET BOILING POINT
The minimum temperatures that brake fluids will begin to boil when the brake system contains 3% water by volume of the system.

DRY BOILING POINT
The temperatures that brake fluid will boil with no water present in the system.

MOISTURE IN THE BRAKE SYSTEM
Water/moisture can be found in nearly all brake systems. Moisture enters the brake system in several ways. One of the more common ways is from using old or pre-opened fluid. Keep in mind, that brake fluid draws in moisture from the surrounding air. Tightly sealing brake fluid bottles and not storing them for long periods of time will help keep moisture out. When changing or bleeding brake fluid always replace master cylinder caps as soon as possible to prevent moisture from entering into the master cylinder. Condensation, (small moisture droplets) can form in lines and calipers. As caliper and line temperatures heat up and then cool repeatedly, condensation occurs, leaving behind an increase in moisture/water. Over time the moisture becomes trapped in the internal sections of calipers, lines, master cylinders, etc. When this water reaches 212º F the water turns to steam. Many times air in the brake system is a result of water that has turned to steam. The build up of steam will create air pressure in the system, sometimes to the point that enough pressure is created to push caliper pistons into the brake pad. This will create brake drag as the rotor and pads make contact and can also create more heat in the system. Diffusion is another way in that water/moisture may enter the system.

Diffusion occurs when over time moisture enters through rubber brake hoses. The use of hoses made from EPDM materials (Ethlene-Propylene-Diene-Materials) will reduce the amount of diffusion OR use steel braided brake hose with a non-rubber sleeve (usually Teflon) to greatly reduce the diffusion process.

THINGS TO REMEMBER
Brake fluids dry boiling point is more important then wet boiling point when used in a racing brake system.
Passenger cars very rarely will undergo a brake fluid change making the wet boiling point more important.
Racing brake system fluid is changed often and a system with fresh fluid will most likely not contain water.
Because of this, racers should be concerned with the dry boiling point.
Racing fluid exceeds DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 dry boiling point specifications.
Never use silicone based fluids in racing brake systems.
Using racing brake fluid will increase performance of the braking system.
Never reuse fluid. º Never mix types or brands of brake fluid.
Use smaller fluid containers that can be used quicker.
If fluid remains in container be sure to tightly seal and do not store for long periods of time.
Purge system (complete drain) and replace fluid often.
Immediately replace master cylinder reservoir cap following any maintenance.


Blah, Blah, Blah

[pgermond]

Aye corrumba........... Brent, that was a cut-n-paste job right? You didn't type all that, did you????

[Brent]

"I scanned a shop manual I have on brake systems."

Heck no.
I am way too lazy and type too slow to do that.

[davebetts]

I would strongly recomend using the Wilwood 600 EXP fluid (has a boiling point of 626 degrees). I know that sounds like overkill, but the temperatures under the cylinder jugs (x3) get unbelievably hot. I've personally cooked a master clutch cylinder because I didn't remember to replace regular DOT 3 fluid, when I did replace the fluilds in the two brake masters.
Also made a simple heat sheild and installed to the footbox (between the headers and the masters. That idea comes directly from this site, don't remember who. Do the search thing.
Good luck and do it right the first time - I didn't. But, I'm learning from this great forum of information.
Thank you everyone!

[pgermond]

Done!!! A little sore from crawling around in that foot box, but done. When all was finished and the car was back down on the ground I warmed her up and checked the timing (hasn't been running quite right). Holy cow! The timing was off by 10 degrees!!! Reset it adjusted the idle and holy smokes, it's like a new car

I use DOT 3 and fab/installed a heat shield when I built my car. I've attached a couple of links to give you an idea of how it can be done.

http://www.uniquecobra.com/uploaded/...t%20shield.JPG
http://www.uniquecobra.com/uploaded/...t%20shield.JPG

Supposed to be 77 tomorrow...... wonder what I'll do?