antifreeze in oil [continued]

[robbinsshkr]

Here's a few photo's of what I'm looking at. I still havent pinpointed the exact cause of the problem, but the closer i look the more i think there are two seperate causes due to the rust trails under the intake. Early on I pulled the plugs and spun the engine over. plugs were free of antifreeze and nothing blew out of the cylinders. I listed to every area I could with a rubber hose and could hear water dripping inside the intake when I put the hose in the oil fill tube located on the intake. I THINK the front right of the engine has a intake gasket problem and the left rear has a small head gasket problem [referring to area's as if I'm standing in front of the engine] I seen tiny drops forming at the left rear head gasket area, but don't think that was enough to allow the volume of water that was filling the pan. I just hope the problem[s] are gasket related and not a warped / cracked intake or head. I have looked as close as I could with the naked eye and flash light, but no type of sonic testing. When I had the cooling system under pressure, I was getting about 5 qtrs of water getting to the oil pan in about a 4 to 5 hour span.
Still talking / working with Bill and Lyle daily, trying to find as much information as possable to determine if they are heading here to make the repairs or get the complete car.
Thanks,
Eddie

[Naumoff]

Bad deal Eddie.
Looks like your doing some serious work.
Again sorry for your troubles.
I know what you are going through right now and it is no fun.
Hopefully everything will work out for you.
Those dreaded black intake gaskets!!

[robbinsshkr]

Do head gaskets need any run time or heat cycles to properly seat and seal or do they normaly seal when they are torqued during the initial install [and retorque shortly after]. The reason I am asking is because I removed a single head bolt [the one pictured with the rust] and water started seeping between the head and head gasket. There was no pressure to help "force" the water out. I may be totaly wrong, but I would have thought that the head gaskets would have continued to seal, even with removing this single bolt. seems like there would still be enough downward force applyed to the head gasket to keep water from seeping from beneath. could this mean the head could be warped or the block needs to be decked?. I think I'll make a doodad that will allow me to put air directly into the cylinder just to see anywhere else the head gaskets may leak.
I would like your thoughts and any past experiences you may have had.
Thanks,
Eddie

[davebetts]

Just sharing what happen to me yeasrs ago. Too wierd to belive but, trust me it happened. I pulled the dip stick to check oil level and found that gray gunk (emulsified water) on the stick. I panicked thinking there must be someting wrong with the block or gasket or whatever. Drove it home and started the search as to how water could get into the oil. I couldn't find anything. Turned the engine back on and as the temp came up, noticed a small misting of water from a heater hose. Seems the hose was just slightly touching the alternator cooling fins and was wearing a pinhole in the rubber hose, heat and pressure comes up and the leak begins. System cold and ther were no leaks visable. The misting water was right near the oil intake cap, water goes in and eventnally shows up on the dip stick. Replaced and moved hose position - problem solved. Moral of the story - ASSUME NOTHING AND USE AN OPEN MIND APPROACH. Sometimes you get lucky.

[scott h]

when i rebuilt my 351 w the engine builder insisted on running a small bead of sealant around the water ports on both sides of the intake gasket to ensure zero leakage. so far so good!

[Slither]

Bummer Eddie... sorry to hear that the saga continues.

Has SA given any response to your detective work?

[robbinsshkr]

As a matter of fact I just hung up the phone with Bill. unless something unforseen comes up, Lyle will be hear tuesday or wednesday of next week with a new set of heads, and a new intake. both bill and lyle are baffled by what i have told them and sent upclose, detailed photos along with my test results. they are leaning towards a cracked intake or head, something they said developed after it left there test stand. Looking back, I have always noticed the oil being a bit odd since i first got the car in december, but I had figured it as being part of the assembley lube mixed in with the oil. I WILL drop the pan before lyle gets here, just incase there are problems in the bottom end. they dont want be to take the heads off until they get hear so they can do a few checks of there own. I completely understand their wanting to do that. I mentioned to him that if we had to pull the engine, i would consider an upgrade. bill said he would give me a 100% credit for my engine towards an upgrade, but for the minimal amout of horsepower i would be gaining verses the additional cost, i think i'll stay where i'm at.
Eddie

[Naumoff]

I should race Jim Harding and see how that super FE does against a 482 stroker with the same CNC'd heads.

Jim does have a bigger cam. Should be interesting.

[Jim Harding]

I should race Jim Harding and see how that super FE does against a 482 stroker with the same CNC'd heads.

Jim does have a bigger cam. Should be interesting.

You're a glutten for punnishment..... maybe if I can get mine running before you loose another motor......
Erson rockers are here and now waiting for pushrods. This set looks massive compaiared to the SA/Dove set up. I'll try to get some pics to post.
You have Aluminum Edelbrock heads on your motor?

[Naumoff]

You're a glutten for punnishment..... maybe if I can get mine running before you loose another motor......
Erson rockers are here and now waiting for pushrods. This set looks massive compaiared to the SA/Dove set up. I'll try to get some pics to post.
You have Aluminum Edelbrock heads on your motor?

Yes and yes.

I might as well loose it having fun than driving it easy and loosing it like I have been.

Just replace my crankshaft damper spacer. Replacing the 50 year old one with a new one from Blue Thunder. The damn crank shaft bolt was loose again.
Stupid Scat cranks. I have seen a Keith Craft 482 in a Kirkham with the crank bolt missing. I asked Keith what was up with that and he said that is not right. I asked him what cranks he used. He couldn't remember what crank was in the engine but either a Scat or an Eagle. I am betting that it was a Scat crank.
Please everyone that have a stroker engine with a Scat crankshaft re torque your crank bolt. Better to be safe than sorry.

Sorry for the High jack

[Slither]

Lyle will be hear tuesday or wednesday of next week with a new set of heads, and a new intake. Eddie

What's the good word, Eddie?

[robbinsshkr]

Slither,

Thanks for ask'n. Had a very good visit from Lyle, he looked better than Santa Clause when he started unloading the new heads, intake, and other goodies. When Lyle got there I had everything ready to go, removed intake, valvetrane, etc. I went ahead and dropped the pan just to be sure.
Lyle brought some block off plates that allowed him to fill the heads with 100 psi or so through the block where the water pump mounts. had to do one side at a time, but everything checked out fine with the block and heads. To be quite honest we still don't know if it was an intake or gasket problem and with the amount of water getting in it could have been both.
We did find a place on the intake that had a slight dip in it when I laid a razor blade across it as a straight edge. Lyle will pressure test the intake when he gets back to GA. At the end of the day, we had eliminated the block and heads as the problem, replaced the intake, fired it up and all is well . Got it up to 185 or so, shut it off and the cooling system was still holding pressure quite some time later, something it wouldn't do before. May never know what the actual problem was, but it's good to go now. I'll let you know the results of lyle psi testing the intake.
Thanks,
Eddie

ps.....something that was interesting is when resetting the timing, it would not come back down with engine rpm to an idle. It acted as if the weights in the distributor were sticking, but when checked they seemed fine. It was also slow to advance when rpm's were increased. The weights move freely and lyle said it may just need to be ran a bit more, but if it doesn't improve he'll send another distributor. It would be kinda disappointing if I came to a traffic light and the "rumpety-rump" of the camshaft couldn't be heard because of the advanced timing / higher idle. I probably just need to run all the cob webbs out of it.

[cal.cheesehead]

Eddie, good to hear your prblem is resolved. Pretty good advertising for SA. Sounds like the really stood behind there product.
Cheese.

[robbinsshkr]

Hey Cheese,

I'm not sure what other engine builders would have done, I imagine they would say "pull it out, ship it back and we'll take a look at it"
I felt that S/A and Lyle really stood behind their product. Not only did they warrant the repairs parts, labor, new oil, filter, etc, but Lyle loaded everything up and drove the 16 hour [round trip] not only to repair the problem, but he wanted to see first hand what the problem was so he can make sure it doesn't happen again. In this particular case, I don't think it was anything that was done wrong, it's just one of those things that can happen. For those of you that have never met Lyle, He's a very laid back, soft spoken kinda guy that really has a passion for what he does, and honestly takes it to heart when a problem arises.
I have to tease him a bit as he said he had never been to Indiana, but he wanted to know why there were so many ant hills built in some of the fields by the house.....They were big'ol craw-dad holes
Good People !

[cal.cheesehead]

Eddie, If I wouldn't have had a great builder in my backyard I would have gone with SA. Heck you think Alan would continue to work with them if they were just run of the mill? Have a safe holday weekend.
Cheese.

[Naumoff]

Hey Cheese,

I'm not sure what other engine builders would have done, I imagine they would say "pull it out, ship it back and we'll take a look at it"
I felt that S/A and Lyle really stood behind their product. Not only did they warrant the repairs parts, labor, new oil, filter, etc, but Lyle loaded everything up and drove the 16 hour [round trip] not only to repair the problem, but he wanted to see first hand what the problem was so he can make sure it doesn't happen again. In this particular case, I don't think it was anything that was done wrong, it's just one of those things that can happen. For those of you that have never met Lyle, He's a very laid back, soft spoken kinda guy that really has a passion for what he does, and honestly takes it to heart when a problem arises.
I have to tease him a bit as he said he had never been to Indiana, but he wanted to know why there were so many ant hills built in some of the fields by the house.....They were big'ol craw-dad holes
Good People !

Stop using those black gaskets.

Lyle is a great guy. He made a trip to MD with his lovely wife to fix a problem with my first engine.

[Slither]

That is fantastic news, Eddie! I am glad y'all got it sorted out.

I was reading something recently about this very issue with a distributer... but I cannot for the life of me remember where it was.

The upshot was that the springs were too light for the advance curve. Also, there are some type of pads in the unit that wear out and must be replaced... not likely with your new unit, though?

Here is the link... not sure if it will be helpful, but...

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98013


Good luck!

[Naumoff]

Eddie,
What distributor are you running?

Ford with the Pertronix unit

[robbinsshkr]

thanks for the link, i will definetly check it out.
I'm running all MSD....distributor, box & coil.

Thanks guys!
Eddie

[Slither]

OK Eddie, good luck with it.