351 Windsor or Cleveland and why?

[deanrr]

Hey guys I'm new to the Unique forum but have been cruisin CC for about 2 months. I'm in the early research phase and have almost been overwhelmed by the amount of experience and information available. I've finalized on going with the Unique kit, Clay once again thanks for your time, but need some power plant info. I will be in Arizona when it comes time and will driving mostly street, cruises and scenic club rides. My wife also wants to take her turn at the wheel but I still want that kick in the a$$ when I step on the gas.

So to my question, 351 Windsor or Cleveland and why? All opinions are welcome and appreciated.

Also who sells Uniques in AZ?

[Brent]

Are you building a 289 car or a 427 car?


Brent

[souzape]

Your engine choice boils down to a matter of personal preference. Windsors are currently much more plentiful with a very robust aftermarket presence. Clevelands had more performance potential in their day because of the canted valve design of the heads but they are becoming increasingly scarce and have relatively (to the windsors) little aftermarket support. Current Windsors with aftermarket heads and valve trains make lots of power. That being said, I built my car with a Cleveland (289 style) and have been very pleased with the results. I use mine very much the same as you plan to use yours. Beware of using the 4v heads if you choose to go the Cleveland route because they can be rather balky in the low RPM ranges. My engine uses a set of "prepped" 2v heads which give great low end response and supposedly produces about 425 advertised HP which I don't doubt in the slightest. Your car will probably weigh arouned 2200-2400 lbs when completed which offers it a very respectable HP/LB factor with that kind of power.

You will want to deal directly with the Weavers when you get ready to buy. The experience was great in my case...would do it again in a heart beat.

PHIL SOUZA

[eliminator]

The Clevland engine (351) has less parts available for high performance applications. It's a nice looking engine but weighs nearly as much as a 390, 427, or 428 engine. It is also bigger than the 351 Windsor as since the Windsor "evolved" from the 289 type engine it seems more correct in a Cobra even though its more of a Mid Block size than small block. The Clevland is not very desirable for resale either. So basically is a big, heavy, medium block engine. May work OK in the 427S/C body but definetly a no no in the 289 FIA body, those are my thoughts and opinions. Because of it's weight, size, ect., is is not very desirable and that's why the performance parts are not as available, no demand.

Eliminator

[pgermond]

Personal preference is the key, and if is a small block you are looking for, then a Winsor would be my choice. I choose a big block myself. The look, feel, the sound, and ooh's and aah's I hear when I lift the hood are some reasons why.

Good luck........... Oh, and as far as I know, Unqiue's are sold in Alabama. Real nice folks - gie them a call (256) 546-3708

Phil

427 Roadster, #4279436
Southern Automotive FE
3:31 and Toploader

Roseville (N.Cal)

[clayfoushee]

Dean,

That's fantastic to hear you've decided to go with Unique. Contact me anytime if you want to come out and talk or look things over before the AZ move.


Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[JerryBP]

The 351 Cleveland is much more like a 350 Chevy (quicker reving) than any other older Ford engine as it was made compete in Nascar when the displacement was lowered to 358ci max. It doesnt produce much torque until the revs reach 3000, as to hop-up parts the speed-shops don't have much but the Race-shops do and it can be had in alunium block & heads and Nascar is still using it.

Work in Progress, Unique 427-9429 400+hp 351C Tremec 3550-2 5spd Coal Black
by Bruce, Greg & Jerry Porter Caldwell, Ohio

[eliminator]

Jerry,
NASCAR is really not using it, what they are using is a Hybrid of the Clevland and Windsor.
Correct me if Iam wrong.

Rick

[rdorman]

I agree with most things here. Don't understand the resale thing nor the demand except that the demand is slight due to them only making them for a few years here in the states. The Aussies made them into the 80's and love them.

For your stated use either will work. I prefer the Cleveland because of its rarity and heritage. The motor was designed for competition. The windsor, for a station wagon;) Plus I think it is a more attractive engine and they love to rev. Weight difference is about 40 pounds, all iron. My Unique with the cleveland is a 45/55 weight distribution front to rear.

There is certainly a larger aftermarket support for the windsor (what 30 million plus motors vs 1 million) so parts are cheaper (but not by a huge amount). There is some serious aftermarket stuff for the cleveland. In general the aftermarket for the cleveland is some pretty serious stuff. AFR aluminum heads, funnel webs and four valve heads. The bottom ends are pretty much bullet proof. Pro Stocker where turning 10,000 on a factory crank and I, as well of others, have never heard of a broke crank in the cleveland. Obviously, these where not off the shelf, but they are the same piece that came in the production cars. They are dimesionally larger than the windsor.

The small valve heads are generally a better choice for street use. But, mine has large valve heads and it makes 90% of max torque all the way from 2000 up (peak power is reached at 5600 and is flat up to 6300). Pretty flat torque curve if you ask me! Obviously this is a mild motor. About 323 hp and 354 torque to the rear wheels.

I think Nascar is using a hybrid of a windsor type block with canted valve heads like the cleveland. Canted valve heads are like those found on BB chevys and fords 460 series of engine (cleveland actually shares some parts with the 460).

I really think it boils down to choice. Rarer or cost. Look is so subjective.

What ever you end up with, you will love it!

Rick

[deanrr]

Thanks for the info guys. I've decided on the 427 bodybut for my use the BB is more than I'll need, hell I'll always want more and when the time comes might just drop in the BB. For now I'm budgeting the the 351, my dad swears by the Cleveland so I'll probably go that route.

Phil, who built your engine?

Clay, I'll be contacting you soon, I'm planning to head out to Lee's shop this weekend.

Dean

[Brent]

deanrr,
If the look of an FE big block is what you want but the small block fits the budget for now I have a suggestion. Rather than build a small block where none of the parts will fit when you decide to spend the big bucks on a 427.(motor mounts,headers,flywheel,clutch,pressure plate,bellhousing, etc.)

A 390 ford engine is a dime a dozen. It can not be recognized as a 390 instead of a 427 by anybody other than an FE expert. The intake,heads,dist,valvecovers,motor mount,oil pan,flywheel,clutch,bellhousing,valvetrain, etc. are all interchangable.
I have a .060 over 390 = 402 ci and everybody loves it and it runs awesome. I have less in my motor with Webers than most 427SO shortblocks cost.[^]

You can have your cake and eat it too.

Brent

[souzape]

I got my engine from Southern Automotive. It fit very nicely into the 289 body and makes a dynamite street package. The point about using a 390 is very valid if you have already decided on using the big block body, however.

PHIL SOUZA

[eliminator]

Brent is absolutely right on the money, if I was going to budget my engine in a 427 S/C Body it would be the 390 engine. Anything else in the 427 S/C body beside a FE Engine does not turn my crank, I like period correct stuff. That's my opinion and I am sticking to it. Plus for all of us, the reality is we will sell the car some day or heirs get it, it is worth more money with the FE engine in the 427 S/C body. That's a fact, prove me wrong.

Rick

[rdorman]

Rick (Eliminator), I assume that the prove me wrong statement about resale value was in response to my post. I wasn't looking at the resale value between the BB and SB but rather the Windsor and Cleveland since that was what the thread starter was asking about. I don't think that anyone could argue that the ideal situation from a resale standpoint is a SB in a SB car and a BB in a BB car. Even better than that would be of the correct type. The 390 is an excellent alternative.

As for engine weights, here some that I found (I am assuming this is a stock all iron piece):
289/302 - 460
cleveland - 550
windsor - 510
FE - 650
429/460 - 640

And just for fun, the Cadillac V-16 1,300 and the VW flat four, 200.

Rick

[JerryBP]

Rick, you are correct about Nascar now useing a Hybrid of the Clevland and Windsor. The last used Yates motor i worked on was a few yrs old.
I am loseing interest in Nascar with all the rule changes, now that they are nearly the same except for paint and engines.

Work in Progress, Unique 427-9429 400+hp 351C Tremec 3550-2 5spd Coal Black
by Bruce, Greg & Jerry Porter Caldwell, Ohio

[eliminator]

Rick D.,

No, I wasn't refering to your post, I have just been watching the resale value of the Cobra Kit Cars for 6-7 years and that's whats happening out there. You are correct in your statement about the ideal situation of type engine in specific cars. Those engine weights are intresting, I noticed some information some time back when you add the aluminum components the FE actually can be as light or ligher than the Clevland or Windsor, wish I could find that again. We all know that the FE iron intake alone is nearly 100#.
Jerry,
Being a fan as far back as the mid 60's when I was stationed in North Carolina it sure has changed. We use to spend time at Petty Enterprises and Holman-Moody back then. We were fans when it wasn't the "cool thing" to be a fan. I agree with you completely, I would not pay to see any restrictor plate racing, what a shame. Before long we are going to see races start with under 40 cars in the event. I am sure down deep Winston is praising the Govt. for getting them out of Racing ,that saved them a bundle of money. Yep, I think one template is good for all cars now.

Rick

[rdorman]

Just posting just in case! And you sure can make them lighter! I know on the cleveland the intake difference is about 50 pounds and with the large head they have vs the windsor I would imagine that aluminum cleveland heads would be a pretty big savings!
Rick

[clayfoushee]

Interesting.....I've lost interest in NASCAR as well, even though I grew up in NC and was a big fan of Fred Lorenzen, Holman Moody, and the Ford factory teams. I think NASCAR has missed the boat on making all the cars clones, except for different head- and tailight decals. Whatever happened to the idea that one of the things that makes racing interesting, is how a manufacturer designs a car to make it quicker? A design that's superior one season causes the other makes to scramble to catch up. For me, that was always the major attraction. It's totally missing in today's NASCAR.

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[deanrr]

Brent, thanks for the hit on the 390, tunnel vision hadn't even allowed that to enter my thoughts, damn more research. I am going to enjoy the hell out of this thing once it's a reality.

Thanks!

Dean

[pgermond]

Dean,
Southern Automotive http://www.southernautomotiveengines.com/ Their 406. I was going to go with a SB, but really wanted a BB (like the look, sound, etc). Called SA about a top loader and Bill Parham convinced me to go the BB route. Personally, I'm glad I did. Check out this link on this forum if you haven't already -
http://www.uniquecobra.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=348&SearchTerms=engines

Phil

427 Roadster, #4279436
Southern Automotive FE
3:31 and Toploader

Roseville (N.Cal)