Weaver foam question

[rdorman]

What is the ILD and density of the foam used today in Unique seats?
Thanks
Rick

[Mike Geddes]

Do they actually put anything in those seats.????????
Mike

Mike Geddes

[rdorman]

That is supposed to be IFD no ILD!
Thanks
Rick

[clayfoushee]

Rick, many of us have installed that NASA-developed stuff for spacecraft seats sold under the tradename "Tempur" at Brookstone, but available under other names on the web. When I took the old foam out, it's probably the least dense stuff available. The Tempur stuff is probably the heaviest density available, molds to your body, and provides lots of support. It's about a 1 hour job.

Do a search on here....under "Tempur"

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[rdorman]

Thanks Clay. I started a thread over at Club Cobra about seats:http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52615&highlight=seat+upgrades

But either no one knows what I am talking about or has no comments! Eventually a complete interior make over is in order. I have found good sources for foam, leather and wilton wool carpet. I was hoping to find out the basic properties of the stock foam as a gauge to the IFD, or firmness.

I intend to use the viscoelastic (temper, memory, confor, etc) foam in key spots. But I am also going to vary foam type, density, IFD, thickness, covering etc in key areas. If I am going through the trouble, I am going to really go for it!

Goal is of course the most comfortable seat in a Unique that still looks original while through the use of different foam parameters actually offers some lateral support as well. Material list, diagrams etc will be available once I am done! Heck, I am even checking out lumbar bladders and seat heaters.

Rick

[casaleenie]

Rick,

Everyone's ignoring you as usual:D. Now you're being ignored on several forums at the same time...
(when is Frank F's thing in Columbus)

AL

[rdorman]

Geesh I really am being ignored! The dates for the first annual OCC car show has been in all the past emails I have sent out to everyone!

Any way, here is the OCC events link:
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52272

And the link to the first OCC event:
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50590

There are only 118 of us on the OCC mailing list, hopefully we can have a good turn out! Date is 6/12 with a rain date of 6/13.

By the way Al. I finally got around to checking out your pictures on CC as I was putting together our links thread. Good thing I was already married when we first met!:D

Any one for a rousing conversation on suspension frequency? ;)

Rick

[clinck]

Rickster,

I am glad you're investigating the seat issue for all of us. I just got my FIA 289 from Jeff Karnitz in early March. I have driven 200 miles in the car and have only a few complaints. The major one is that the seat is not comfortable. I am only 5'10" and 160 pounds and the foam in the seat cushion is not satisfactory. I'm learning what you all have known. These seats are for looks and not comfortable driving. The position is OK but I am squirming after 15 minutes to find a comfort zone that keeps eluding me. I am looking into the tempur foam myself for a trip to my upholsteror for consultation.
Let us know how your engineering project turns out. We all have sore behinds with the current situation.

Regards,



Sundown

[Brent]

I have 6" of Tempur foam and 3" of open cell foam in my seat bottoms for a total of 9". As Clay said, look under Tempur or seats for the thread.

Very comfy on the ars.

Brent

[clayfoushee]

Clinck,

No need to go the upholsterer....a lot of people have done the Tempur, and it really works. It also takes no time to install, just peel out a few staples, slide it in, and re-staple....it's that simple! Many of us are riding in comfort now.

BTW, once you take that skinny old foam out and look at that particle board bottom, you'll know why your butt hurt:D Ever heard the expression, "like sitting on a board," well you are!

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[rdorman]

The temper for pillows and bedtops is really to soft for automotive use. The best prices I have found so far are at http://www.mcmaster.com/. The temper they sell goes under the trade name of Confor. Currently, the hot ticket (at least for someone my size) seems to be a thin layer of Yellow (CF40) or non-technical foam with a IFD of <15 (multiply mcmaster's compression rating of psa @ 25% by 50 to come up with a approximate IFD), over a layer of pink (cf42) over blue (cf45) over non tecnical foam of about 40 IFD. This seat should not bottom out and be comfortable. Wrap the whole thing in Dacron. I would go with 1/2", 1", 1" and 2" thicknesses respectively. The non-technical foam should have a desnity between 2.5 and 4 pcf (pounds per cubic foot).

To put some of these to real world numbers for Confor (just the one peice of confor, nothing else), for a seat pad 3-4" thick you should use cf42(pink) for 115 pound person, cf45(blue) for 170 pound person and cf47(green) for a 200+ pound person or a 170 pound person in hot and humid conditions. This will not bottom out, offer excellent dampning and shock absorption (you won't feel like you are setting on a mini-trampoline. The approximate IFD for these is 30, 35, 60+ respectively.

This is for the seat CUSHION ONLY. The number for the back are greatly reduced since the amount of weight supported is greatly reduced. Additional perspective is that the IFD for pillows and bed tops is in the 10-15 IFD range so you can clearly see just how thick the pad would have to be to support the weight!

Remember, this stuff is temperature and humidity sensitve. The warmer and "wetter" it is the more compliant it is. 50 to 120 is considered it normal range. Above that it is VERY soft, below that it is very firm.

So no someone go out and try it! I have to many projects going as it is to get to it before next winter!

Rick

[clayfoushee]

Rick,

Sounds like you've done a lot of research....impressive. But, from practical experience, I don't agree that the Tempur is too soft for automotive use. I used a Tempur lumbar pillow placed over the standard foam in the Unique seat. A few weeks ago when it was in the mid-70's I took a 2 hour cruise, where I was in the seat continuously with no bottoming out or discomfort. When I did that before, I was in serious pain.

Brent recently described a similar experience on a cruise with his wife, and I know several others have installed it. Any other experiences with the new foam?

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[rdorman]

From CC response!

Just passing along what the industry experts are saying!

Temper is NOT to soft for automotive use. Just as an FYI for everyone tempur is just a brand name for viscoelastic foam. Comes under many names.

The Tempur that is used for beds and pillows is very soft because it does not have to support the amount of weight, for a given area, that a seat cushion in a car does.

You can absolutely put Tempur pillows, etc in your seat over the other foam and realize a benefit. It WILL feel better.

BUT, some of the folks I have seen do it with the pillows and matresses toppers have ended up with a 9" thick seat cushion! To thick for my tastes.

This stuff is rated at how many pounds it takes to compress 50 sq inches 25%. That is an 8" circle. Obviously, the more you compress it the more you weight it takes. So you can take a soft peice of greater thickness and no bottom out. The amount of weight required to compress the foam is fairly linear when it comes to viscoeleastic foam.

I will give you a example. Confor CF40 (viscoelastic) with an IFD about twice that of the typical pillow or matress cover takes about .3 psi to compress 25%. By the time you get to 70% that is now 1.5 psi. An increase of five fold! So to compress this foam 70% you would have to put 150 pounds in a 8" round area. I would imagine that be about a 400 pound guy! Above just below 80% deflection (compression) the scale becomes vertical and the foam basically becomes non compressable.

Using a little math you can see that you could use any degree of softness foam in a seat and yeild acceptable results. But it is not what is recomended from the industry.

Lets work it. Lets say the old a$$ cheaks have most of the weight on two 8" circles and that the weight is 150 pounds. Lets use a 6" slab of pillow type viscoelastic (such as one person did) and give it a IFD of 15, a good but firm pillow number. That piece for our two circles will support 30 pounds at 25% deflection or a compression of 1.5". Of course, the more you sink into it the more the circle grows! This is only 1/5 of the weight that we are applying. From the previous example you can see that it would take a 70% deflection to increase the IFD five fold. So our 6" hypothetical pad is now 1.8" thick. Still not bottomed out! However, we are now in the point of the depression curve where the product is rapidly becoming 'solid', non compressable. In effect, bottoming out. On bumps in the road and such.

Again, this is all based on industry information and not personal experience which is why I started this thread!

So as you can see, you can use viscoelastic foam in darn near any firmness and you will see a benefit!

Rick

[clayfoushee]

Rick,

I'm not disputing what you or the experts say. I was talking purely PRACTICAL experience with a 3" thick Tempur (visco-elastic) lumbar pillow in my seat cushion over the old foam with my body in it. I also know I was very uncomfortable in that same seat without it.

People not reading your post carefully might mistakenly conclude that it's not a good solution, when in reality, it helps a lot, and is VERY easy. I accept that it's not the ultimate solution (my BMW seats are:D)

It's easy to see from the numbers you published, it's still going to be compressed close to the bottom, but it's a vast improvement.


Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[rdorman]

I responded over on CC. And yes folks, don't get the wrong idea! For those of you that have used the pillows and such you KNOW it helps!

Some one a while ago stated that Unique is changing the seats to make them more comfortable. Does any one know what the changes are?

Send me a seat Weavers and I will do it up in the manner I am talking about and send it back. See if you like the changes! Remember that outwardly there will be no difference in the seats appearence.

Rick

[casaleenie]

By the way Al. I finally got around to checking out your pictures on CC as I was putting together our links thread. Good thing I was already married when we first met!:D



Jeez Rick,

I'm not sure how to take that... Are you talking about my daughters or me....:):D


I spent four hours on line last night winning an Ebay auction for three Tempur pillows.. 20x12x3" $137.00 worth of foam...
I'm thinking it might be easier to strap it to my butt (the Tempur) than to disassemble the seat... :)[8D]

AL

[Brent]

Al,

After all this talk about your gallery pics I just had to take a look. [:O] Beautiful family!!

How many guns do you own? :(

I have two little girls and the thought of them growing up scares the hell out of me.

Brent

[casaleenie]

Brent,

Lots of guns but fortunately I never needed them...

And worry, but don't worry about the girls growing up... It was pure pleasure with my kids and I'm sure yours will be just as much a pleasure.

Oldest one married a lawyer
Middle one married a Weatherhead MBA
Youngest one married a Harvard MBA

I always say... two outta three ain't bad...

and thanks for the compliment...

AL

[rdorman]

Why you, you hunk of a man;) Your offspring of course! Good job on the pillows. Just tuck them under the belt.
Rick

[rdorman]

Dear Weavers:

I am actively working with the owner of a foam manufacturer on foam for our seats! We have been discussing the the design and one of these days I will have information for you! He has even dropped the hint of making the cushions just for Cobras. No promises, and unless he says so he has asked that I keep his name out of the discussion for now since he is a manufacturer and not a retailer. But, if all goes well you should be able to get a very comfortable setup at a price point that will not break the bank! The design could be easily tailored to the Unique buyers weight and also size!

Rick

[spd4me]

You know, I went by this custom car interior place near Cullman, AL and he uses what he called 59 pound foam. Its white and comes in a 3" thick block. You cut and trim it with an electric turkey carving knife and then shape it with a disk sander. If you ever watch American Hotrod on TV, it's what they use on all their hotrods. I just order some and hope to get it in next week. This is the main stuff to use, not Temper. What I am going to do, is cut and shape it with some side wings to keep from sliding sideways across seat and see how it fits.

[casaleenie]

Spd4me,

Hey, I just spent $135. on Tempur for the seats... I don't wanna hear that it's the wrong stuff..

Let me know about your experiences with the 59 lb. foam...

I may have some pillows for sale...

AL

[Brent]

Cobras and snowflakes.

No 2 of them are alike.

My upgrade is working very well so far. I have nothing bad to say about the Tempur fix.

Brent

[bittentoo]

Likewise! The Tempur made my butt very happy:D

[eliminator]

Rick,

Since I havn't done the seat thing yet, I am willing to check your research out. Can you get me some of this foam to try out. Let me know, rbagley@papesinc.com. Then I can compare it to the Tempur foam the other guy's used.

Rick

[spd4me]

If I get this form before Homecoming, I'll bring some with me. If you have a custom car shop around, they'll probably have some. But I will keep you posted.

[rdorman]

When they call it '59 pound' foam I would imagine that it means 59 IFD. That would be very firm foam (59 pounds applied to an 8" circle to compress a 3" sample 3/4"). Probably to firm for the back. If you find it to be to firm on the base you could fix that real easy by taking a slice off the bottom of the foam (so you retain the shape you made in the top) and putting a thin layer or two of something soft right over top.
Rick

[spd4me]

rdorman
Need to see it that guy can give the seat some shape to the sides so your seat won't slide sideways. When going around a long turn the steering wheel is the only thing to keep me in the seat. What these seat people do with this 59 lbs foam is cut and sand to shape you want then they stitch it to the finished contour.

[rdorman]

I am going to give it a bit of shape but most of the 'shape' will be done by the varying foams so that you 'sink' into the seat and it holds you a bit better. I want the seat to look original when done.

Casaleenie, did you stuff your seats? How is your bum?

Rick