Race Fuel

[WBofTN]

Do any of you run race fuel? The reason I ask...My engine builder stongly suggest that I use it full strength (110 octane). He says it
will start easier, run stronger and run cooler (b/c of the lead content).
My car has been running poorly with the winter gas lately.

So, I just bought 15 gallons of Sunnoco purple.
I'm not sure If should run full strength
or water it down with some 93 octane.
Any advice??

Wes

P.S. Race gas smells good:D

'93 Unique 427/351W/4sp

[jhaynie]

Lead content? I thought lead in any fuel was illegal since the 70's?

John

[Brent]

Wb,
What compression is your motor?

Brent

[jhaynie]

Compliments of Google, shows what I know![B)]

http://www.osbornauto.com/racing/leaded.htm

Unique 289FIA #9367
351W Fuel Injected

[WBofTN]

John:
I was told that race gas is leaded.

Brent:
compression is 10.5:1 or there abouts

Wes

'93 Unique 427/351W/4sp

[eliminator]

Wes,

Mix it 50/50 with 93 octane, do not use full strength. Your needle valves in the carb. can handle it and your wasting money.
I use it 90% of the time as well as many others, will definetly keep the engine a little cleaner. You may have to adjust the timing some, advanced.

Rick

[Brent]

Wes,
My motor is 11.1 to 1 and I run 50% Torco 110 octane and 50% 93 octane. I have tried running the 110 straight and I can't tell any change. It does smell better and you can read a plug when you run the good stuff.

Brent

[WBofTN]

Thanks guys - 50/50 sounds good + I wont have to keep so many jugs of the 110 sitting around in the garage.

Gasman???? Can you hear me??? any input???
Wes

'93 Unique 427/351W/4sp

[pgermond]

Don't come to California - it's 91 octane, tops [xx(][8][xx(]

Phil

427 Roadster, #4279436
Southern Automotive FE
3:31 and Toploader

Roseville (N.Cal)

[gasman]

Racing gas is available in leaded and unleaded. It comes in 110, 112, 115 and 118 octanes. Most retailers that sell racing gas sell the unleaded, otherwise, it must be labled as "off road use only" It isn't legal to sell it for street consumption containing lead. That doesn't mean there aren't retailers out there doing it. I had a store in Waynesboro that was selling 118 leaded. Depending on the octane available to you, I would think a 50/50 mixture with 93 octane is still pretty strong. I would suggest 70/30 or 60/40, the lower side being the racing gas. As usual Rick and Brent are right...full strength is too much. Racing gas does smell fine.

Steve Foushee

[dmiller]

aviation gas is leaded, 110 octane, sells for anywhere between $1.99 and #3.00 per gallon. many small county airports are self service,

[clinck]

my 351 stroker was built to run on street gas. I have never run hi octane fuel in this car since getting her. Can you do any damage by running leaded fuel with unleaded fuel. What would be the benefit of running $three dollar a gallon fuel anyway?



Sundown

[pgermond]

This ought to get things going..... but I really am curious. Do any of the advertized octane boosters warrant a try?

Phil

427 Roadster, #4279436
Southern Automotive FE
3:31 and Toploader

Roseville (N.Cal)

[clayfoushee]

The way it's been explained to me by an FE expert, if it's been built to run on street gas (e.g. lower compression pistons, hardened valves designed for unleaded gas), there is no benefit to running higher octane or leaded gas, and you're probably just wasting money. Brent suggested the same above when he was asking about compression ratio. Some of the hard core Cobra types with big FE's are running high compression engines almost like in the old days, and they will only run well on a blend of leaded, higher octane racing gas.

My understanding is that running a blend of leaded gas won't hurt anything except catalytic converters. It kills them.

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[dmiller]

i misstyped, aviation gas is 100 octane.

sorry/

[eliminator]

dmiller,

There is a difference in Avaiation Fuel and leaded race fuel. I was advised not to use the aviation fuel. Maybe Gasman can tell us if this is true or not, I do no the blend is different.

Rick

[excelguru]

dmiller - You didn't mistype. It's available in varying octanes.

I have a contact to get 110 LL (Low Lead) av-gas for $2.60 a gallon. Your best bet: visit a small FOB (Fixed Operator Base, i.e. small-town airport) with a pull-behind 100-gallon tank and strike a price deal with the old guy sitting behind the counter (it's always some old guy). Just tell him you have a grass strip at home and need some fuel for your Cessna. Works every time.

pgermond - It's funny you should bring that up. Just for kicks, I perused the "octane adder" shelf at Wal-Mart last week and started reading the bottles. Hmm... In large print they say, "Adds 10 points to your octane!" but there's a little asterisk. If you find the asterisk note it tells you that "1 point = 0.1 octane level". That works out to 1 additional octane increase per bottle. Whoopedy doo. Other bottles, such as the well-known 104+ Octane Boost don't even mention what octane increases can be expected. I think I'll just stick with buying the more expensive fuel from time to time.

I did almost completely fill my car with 100 Octane once (up to $48 worth which was my threashold of pain on that particular night at $4/gal). The smell is worth the cost of admission. Once the fuel mixture got to the carbs, the world became a better place. I taught some young kids a few lessons that night and I don't mean calculus. The coolest part was the short blue flames that extended from the exhaust tips at full throttle (no kidding). Cleaned up the plugs real nice, too. I may do it again sometime.

Keith :)
Unique Motorcars (http://www.uniquecobrareplicas.com)
Southern Automotive (http://www.southernautomotiveengines.com)
Bruce Bunn (the painter) (http://www.jodecoautobody.com)

My Photo Album (http://members5.clubphoto.com/keith355593/owner-429c-1.phtml)

[nolastyankee]

All,
I'm not quite sure how far the octane adders push normal fuel, but I dumped a bottle into the '66 Mustang just a week ago to see if I could tell the difference. I was expecting the typical high octane smell of race gas which was disappointed was not present. However the car clearly ran harder and I had a great time on that tank. I know it wasn't all in my head because I filled up the nearly dry tank on Saturday night and the wife asked 'what happened to the car' after blowing off some high school kids in a Honda.

Unique 9122 - 289 FIA Cobra - The Legendary "Spence" Car

[dmiller]

i don't know,

avaition exhaust doesn't smell like race car exhaust either, never new why.

may be the aircraft engines are relatively low compression?

doug

[WBofTN]

Well I put a 50/50 mixture in the snake this weekend, but It rained all
weekend[V]. Now that I'm at work - Its nothin but sunshine.
Good Info posted so far[8D].
Gasman: Is there a source on the net listing race gas dealers by geography??
Wes

'93 Unique 427/351W/4sp

[eliminator]

WB,

Check with the Sunoco folks. They have been selling the Royal Purple, 110 for a long time. I have noticed that since Sunoco is now the offical race fuel of NASCAR it went up 75 cents on the 5 gallon quanity. I pay 23.25 for 5 gallons, the guy always gives me 5.5 to 5.7 gallons in every container. This use to go by the name CAM 2, Roger Penkse developed the formular years ago.

Rick

[gasman]

Rick, You impress me more everyday. Gentlemen, unless you have bolted on wings, a rudder and a yoke, do not use aviation gasoline in your car! ;) There is a pretty big difference in aviation fuel designed for running at high altitude in low compression motors and street fuels. Most horizonally opposed aviation motors are around 8.5 to 1 compression ratios. 100LL in a street motor would likely burn valves used over prolonged periods. If you are looking for higher octane, I would recommend using racing gas. Not that anyone cares, but avgas has not been road taxed and is not legal to use in an automobile.

Wes, Union 76/Tosco stations have racing gasoline at select locations until they run out. They are getting out of that business. You will probably find it at your local dirt track. If anyone wants to buy a transport load (9,000 gallons) give me a call. Your local petroleum wholesaler in the yellow pages will probably have Turbo blue or Sunoco purple. They are all good products.

Steve Foushee

[WBofTN]

Thanks Steve:
Can you Bring that 9000/gal load with you to Homecoming???
With 50 cars there / holding 20 gal each = 1000/gal .....never mind.
I was just trying to help you pay for your hotel room.
Wes

'93 Unique 427/351W/4sp

[clayfoushee]

Can any damage be done to lower compression engines designed to run on street gas, by putting racing fuel in them? Truth is I have no clue what my compression ratio is. My explanation above was based upon what an FE builder told me. He thought it was a waste of money, but didn't say anything about possible damage.

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[Brent]

Clay, Your right

Higher octane fuel in a low compression motor is just a waste of time and money.

Brent

[rdorman]

Higher octane than is required is a waste of money. But some would say so is the Mobil 1 oil I use. The winter issues could be part carb (cold air is a lot more dense!), blocked intake heat but probably not winter blend. But, you can run it if you want. Won't hurt a thing. Some small benefit may be had but I doubt it will be any performance that you can feel/measure, unless of course the fuel you where running was not adequate.
Rick

[WBofTN]

The rain finally let up sunday and I got a chance to try the Sunoco purple
110 race gas mixed with some 93 pump gas. I was pleased. The car starts and runs better, No carb back fires, and my side pipes burned white & clean.
Wes

'93 Unique 427/351W/4sp

[gasman]

Wes, White exhaust pipes may indicate you are running a little to lean. Your car was probably tuned to run 93 octane. If you want to burn higher octane product routinely, it might be a good idea to adjust your timing to compensate for the hotter mixture. You want to see a dark chocolate brown color on your pipes

Steve Foushee

[dmiller]

i'm in over my head, but doesn't higher octane fuel burn a little slower, and with a little less energy content than lower octane fuel does? if i'm correct in this thinking, would the compensation for higher octane fuel be to advance the timing to compensate for the slower burn?

on modern engines with knock sensors, don't they retard the engine timing if knock is detected, as would be the effect of lower octane fuel?

doug

[Jim Harding]

Doug,

That's what I have been told.

But of course, we both could be wrong too:D[8D][8D]

Jim Harding
La Plata, Maryland

1982 #3004
http://www.capitalareacobraclub.com/albums/album26/1aLeftside.thumb.jpg

[eliminator]

Doug,

You are correct in your statement. Actually racing fuel will make the side pipes ash colored when everything is set up correct. It does burn cooler than unleaded 93 octane. Normally on a 50/50 mixture you need the timing advanced somewhat. On the FE engine mine likes about 8 degrees inital and 36-37 degrees total. All my advance is in by 2,500 - 2,700 RPB. I have a MSD Pro Billet with the light silver springs and the red stop bushing. I use a dial back timing light as that is more accurate than a standard timing light. You have to remember that the timing marks can be off several degrees + or - unless the engine builder took the time to find exact TDC. So in reality I may be at 6 inital and 34 total or somwhere above that. You just have to find out what works best for your car the way it is marked.

Rick

[WBofTN]

I was able to set my idle mixture screws richer with this race gas and I would discribe the pipes as ash colored. No more black spots on the drive-way when the car sits and idles.
Wes

'93 Unique 427/351W/4sp

[gasman]

Wes, I had a feeling Rick would have the answer. You've convinced me to try some in my car.

Steve Foushee

[WBofTN]

Steve:
Try the Sunoco purple. It has a higher boiling point than the blue.
I have had a vapor lock before (sitting in traffic).
Wes

'93 Unique 427/351W/4sp

[gasman]

Wes, the Sunoco product is not available in my city. Union 76 has 100 octane unleaded while supplies last. I put some in my car tonight and I already wish I hadn't, wow, what a difference. at 4 bucks a gallon, it would be hard to get use to.

Steve Foushee

[clayfoushee]

Gasman,

I guess the question I keep asking on this thread is Why? Unless you have a high compression engine that simply wasn't built to run on today's pump gas, why would you do it? It's just money out the tail pipe. Does that 427 on 93 octane not have enough umph for you? I would really like to see dyno numbers on the difference, and I would bet there is a negligible, if any, difference.

I heard an interesting discussion from Pat Goss from Motorweek, who does a local radio show on weekends. A muscle car owner called about today's pump gas vs. what was available in the 60's. Pat read him the riot act and informed him that today's 87 octane regular was equivalent to the 93 octane regular from the 60's because of today's R+M/2 method of rating octane. 60's octane ratings posted on pumps then were using an entirely different rating method, which overstated what they really were by today's method. So 60's 100 octane was pretty close to today's 93.

Again, my understanding is that lead was necessary in those days for lubricating the valve seats, etc. which were not hardened the same way as the same components built for the same engines today. I do understand the high compression issue, but most of us don't have motors built that way.

Show me some dyno comparisons on the same engine and same car, and I might be convinced, but it goes against everything I've read.

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[eliminator]

Clay,
That's an easy one, "Dont Use It";). Why do you drink a beer?? Water is much better for you and cheaper[^].

Rick

[WBofTN]

Rick:
Beer is like 93 octane, Sunoco Purple is like "p.g.a.":D;)
Steve:
A gas station most likley will not sell sunoco race fuel.
Try speed shops or a race track. I found 2 guys around here who sell it out of there garage. A distributor will sell you a barrel for $235. I may buy a barrel this summer and split it with some of my local cobra buddies.
Wes

'93 Unique 427/351W/4sp

[clayfoushee]

Sorry Rick....have to disagree with you on that analogy. I am well acquainted with the benefits I receive from beer that more than justify the extra price and the dead brain cells.:D

I don't pretend to be an automotive engine wiz. But, I have read a lot on this question, and was just trying to determine, what, if any benefit one would get from high-octane racing gas in an engine that theoretically didn't require it.

Is it more HP or is it your brain trying to convince you it really does run better once you've sprung for the stuff:)?

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[eliminator]

Clay,
I understand what your saying.
The benefit of racing fuel, mixed is:
Cleans the intake and combustion area, does allow for somewhat cooler cylinder head temperatures, don't know how much.
With the higer octane, the engines I have seen start better and come to operating temperature better.
It does equalize 93/94 octane fuel ( my motorcycle is a good barometer on this, if I get bad 93 octane it tells me real quick so I have my perferred stations) in Louisville if you get fuel in the city limits the fuel has additives that are not great for performance engines, ouside the city fuel is of a better quality for lawnmowers, chain saws, boats, motorcycles, ect. (Steve would be an expert here).
So if you had "good" 93 octane fuel or a mixture of race fuel and 93 octane you can't tell much difference. You can tell the difference performance wise in some engines more than others, especially at 10:1 compression ratios and up. I know some folks with 427 FE engines that claim that the racing fuel mixture runs terrible in their cars, others say they can tell a positive difference. Since these are not high mileage cars and your not talking about alot of fuel consumpion why not run some if your pocket book will stand the price. We just play the Racing Game we don't live or die from Racing. And if it makes you think you car is performing better then that's good. Just like when you wash and wax a vehicle, they always seem to run better.

Rick

[clayfoushee]

Sort of what I expected Rick......

Not much choice of fuel in these parts, it's all the oxygenated city stuff and would probably have to drive 100 miles to find anything different. Maybe I'll find out in Alabama:D

Fortunately, on the available stuff from Shell or Sunoco, it cold starts immediately almost as soon as I bump the starter, comes up to temp in a couple of minutes, idles great, the pipes are "ash-covered" of the darker grey variety, and, if anything, runs too cool.

And yes, it always runs better with a clean windshield, and after I've checked the oil:D

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[gasman]

Clay, Posted 93 octane product tested for octane would probably register somewhere between 93.5 and 93.7 octane. Without question, this product is more than adequate for our motors. Put 87 octane product in your car and you might get a feel for the difference in 93 octane and the higher octane products available in some markets. Your city, being an attainment area and selling only oxiginated products will certainly not have the higher RVP products. Riok's last thread is right on target, higher octane equates to cleaner burn, better starting and extreme performance. Is it worth it, probably not.

Steve Foushee

[clayfoushee]

Thanks Steve, but it couldn't possibly start any better...starter barely turns over before it fires....hot or cold.

As to "extreme performance," I'd really like to see a dyno comparison of the same car and engine (not a high compression engine, but one built for street gas) to root out how much is real vs. imagined. Who's game?

Sounds like a job for Brent:D

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[gasman]

Alan, do you have a dyno in your shop? Something tells me, there might be a few cars showing up with a tiger in the tank.

Clay, aviation motors are relatively low compression 8.5 to 1 by comparison and use 100LL.

Steve Foushee

[Brent]

Clay my dyno days are over. The all night thrash looking for another 10hp means nothing in this car.I have had a 1000+ hp Ford motor, on the motor, and I am over that need. What I have in the car right now is PLENTY for what I want to do with it.

As far as the fuel thing goes, if you think you need it nobody can talk you out of it.The emotional side of the brain usually wins over the logical side anyway. If your motor runs like you want it to on 93 leave it alone. You just saved 2.00 per gallon.

Brent

[clayfoushee]

Brent, it was just an intellectual curiosity thing for me. I don't need it, and I know that, but I've always been interested in the topic, and heard it discussed for years. Like you, I know I already have too much.

You're dead-on right about the emotional vs. logical and the power of the brain. It's well known in medical science that sick people can go to the Dr., get a placebo or sugar pill, and report feeling much better. Similarly, I think there's a tendency in us all to convince ourselves that our cars run better after anything we do to them.

Steve, those old Lycoming's you're talking about are running on 100LL for reasons other than compression-ratio. They were certified many, many years ago by the FAA on that stuff, and the AOPA and General Aviation Man. Assoc. have been effective in keeping the EPA at bay, with FAA's help because they don't want to go throught the huge expense of recertification. Studies have shown that they can be converted to lower octane, no lead, but you know how expensive they are to rebuild, don't you........

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[gasman]

Clay, yep, I sure do and I'm not looking forward to it happening anytime soon. Not trying to belabor this debate, as I see it, higher octane products are more refined and simply stated, much cleaner burning. If you run a carbureted avaition motor on pump gas, the tanks, fuel lines and carburetor will be visably dirty. The same motor reverting to 100LL looks brand spanking new. As I've said before, is the price you pay for it worth it...NO. Is it fun once in a while...Absolutely. It is probably wise to use periodically just to clean things up inside.

Steve Foushee

[clayfoushee]

Tanks and fuel lines are more dirty on 93 octane[?]. Wouldn't that depend more upon the storage tanks where the gas was purchased? Makes one wonder how modern cars can make it to 100K mi. on that nasty stuff without a tuneup.

Yikes, this might go 4 more pages:D, but not from me. I'm retired from this subject.

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[eliminator]

Can't beleive this one is still going[:O], it's like the Energizer Bunny. I am out of here, will have my car full of "blended fuel" and two full jugs in the trailer[}:)], see you in Gadsden;).

Rick

[KrAzEcJ]

There is a good read in the June issue of Hotrod mag I believe (I'l confirm when I get home) testing the 2 new ZZ572 cu inch crate motors. One is the 620 hp (9.6:1) version and the other a 720 hp (12:1) version. It was interesting because in their testing they ran the 12:1 version on both racing fuel and 93 octane gas with a little tweaking on the timing and posted the dyno results. The higher compression motor actually ran good on the 93 octane gas but with a 10 - 15 hp loss. I would have liked to see the 9.6:1 ran on racing fuel to see if there was any gains on the street version but they didnt do that.

[clayfoushee]

KrAzEcJ (wow....that's hard to type),

I was recently treated by a friend to a 50-50 mix of 110 (leaded) racing and 93 pump. I'm not sure if I can really tell any difference in power, but my car did seem to idle smoother and a little lower on the racing stuff. Plus, the residue at the tips of the pipes was noticeably different (milk chocolate brown as opposed to black), and thus I suspect combustion is a lot cleaner. Maybe it helps to run the blend just to clean it all out every now and then.

Thus, I've changed my mind a little bit since this thread was active. Unfortunately, it's very hard to get around here, but I did find it in a racing shop that sells it in 5 gal. quantities.


Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler, top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[pgermond]

Try finding some of that Gorilla Juice in or around Roseville CA, let alone 93 octane :([8]:(

Phil

427 Roadster, #4279436
Southern Automotive FE
3:31 and Toploader

Roseville (N.Cal)

[gasman]

Phil, what is the highest available octane there? I haven't been that far west recently. I was in Colorado a few years back, 91 Octane was the highest available then.

Steve Foushee
Unique #4279389

[WBofTN]

KrAzEcJ
I have found that a 50/50 (110/93 octane) mixture solved several carb and
starting issues on my car. I was always tweeking the carb trying to stop
a rich idle and/or a carb backfire. Since I started using the 50/50 mixture, my hood has been stayin shut:D. However,I do not notice any change in H.P..
Wes

'93 Unique 427/351W/4sp

[KrAzEcJ]

quote:Originally posted by pgermond

Try finding some of that Gorilla Juice in or around Roseville CA, let alone 93 octane :([8]:(

Phil

427 Roadster, #4279436
Southern Automotive FE
3:31 and Toploader

Roseville (N.Cal)


How far is North Highlands from you Phil? I'm not familiar with Ca. even though I was born there LOL Pac West trailers sells it.
http://www.pacwesttrailers.com/raceGas.htm

[pgermond]

91 octane :( And North Highlands is close :D I'll check it out - thanks!

Phil

427 Roadster, #4279436
Southern Automotive FE
3:31 and Toploader

Roseville (N.Cal)

[pgermond]

KrAzEcJ (I'm sure that stands for something!?!),

Visited Pac West Trailers this afternoon and picked up some Sunoco Purple 110 octane. I'm gonna see what all the fuss is about and inhale some exhaust this weekend [:P]:D[:P]


Phil

427 Roadster, #4279436
Southern Automotive FE
3:31 and Toploader

Roseville (N.Cal)

[KrAzEcJ]

Phil its just CJ if thats easier. Theres just to many CJ's around and hard to join forums with that name lol
Glad they could hook you up. Curious to know if you can tell any difference.

CJ

[gasman]

Well Phil, don't keep us in suspense...just a tad bit of difference, huh?

Steve Foushee
Unique #4279389

[pgermond]

Gasman, Oh Yeah [:P][:P][:P]

Mixed 60/40 - The first thing I noticed was the smell, then that the engine was running a tad bit cooler, and then zarroooooooommm!!! This thing goes like a raped ape anyway and, to be honest, I don't know if it makes a substantial difference. But the pipes definitely are looking a lot better than their normal "black", and it starts immediately if the engines hot (on the 91 octane it takes a couple of cranks).

I don't know that I'm going to spend $6/gal all that often, but it sure is fun [^] I see on the Sunoco web site they sell 100 octane at the pump in some states - but not anywhere even remotely close to California :(


Phil

427 Roadster, #4279436
Southern Automotive FE
3:31 and Toploader

Roseville (N.Cal)

[gasman]

Phil, You are welcome to use my guest room while you look for a civilized place to live.

Steve Foushee
Unique #4279389

[pgermond]

[B)] - LOL - ;)

Phil

427 Roadster, #4279436
Southern Automotive FE
3:31 and Toploader

Roseville (N.Cal)

[pbrown]

I didn't see anything is Washington state neither.

--Patrick

[gasman]

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_fuels.html?mgiToken=0C15B7C86B4900C50C

Hey guys, found this thread today. It might make it easier for those of you wanting racing gas to get your hands on it. It also has answers to many of the questions posed in this thread.

Steve Foushee
Unique #4279389