Engine Swap Questions

[Russ Dickey]

Just for giggles, if I was to swap the 351W in my FIA out for a 289/302, what else would I need to change? Are the headers different?

Thanks,

Russ



Unique 289FIA - Viking Blue

[TurnpikeBoy]

[:O]<img src=images/icon_speech_yes.gif border=0 width=23 height=15 alt=Insert Speech Icon: Yes!>

351's are different blocks than 289/302's; about an inch taller thru the cylinders (also known as deck height, measured from crank centerline to top of cylinder bank). You will need new headers. Also new manifold & distributor.

Other than that, pretty much everything else will work - mounts are in the same location.

Yeehah

[nolastyankee]

Russ,
While the 289/302's are more period 'correct' for the FIA cars, don't forget that Bob Bondurant - the great Cobra driver himself - once said that the ultimate Cobra would be a 289 race car with the 351W engine. More power without the weight distribution issues of the big block.

As Turnpike mentions, the intake, headers, and distributor would change on a 351. The oil pan also has different rails and depending on the 351 that you have and the 289/302 that you go to, the transmission mounts may be different as well.

Unique 9122 - 289 FIA Cobra - The Legendary "Spence" Car

[Russ Dickey]

I'm thinking about a 347-stroker with the EFI weber carb look-alikes, for period correctness. From the research I've done, the 347's don't produce that much less HP and torque than the stroked 351's, plus they rev faster. And, I'll save about 35lbs off the nose with the 289/302.

I'm just kicking the idea around. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do yet, but I know that my slow-ass mill has to go. As always, I welcome any and all opinions. Since it's winter now, I've figured we've got some time to shoot the breeze about this subject...

Russ

Unique 289FIA - Viking Blue

[nolastyankee]

I'll let you know how our EFI stack system works out...Dyno 2000 is predicting 460 flywheel hp with a roller cam and World Products Windsor Sr. heads.

If you are building...In my opinion the ultimate Cobra motor would be a 427 Windsor. Oh baby!

Unique 9122 - 289 FIA Cobra - The Legendary "Spence" Car

[TurnpikeBoy]

Well......

Rather than going thru all the work connected with (1) getting a 289/302 block; (2)doing the machine work for the stroker; (3)buying stroker kits - cast? forged? hypereutectic? forged?; (4)new distributor/manifold/oil pan (thanks, NLY)/headers; and other assorted crap....

Why not go get a good camshaft, some AFR 185 heads, yank the motor, clean everything and reassemble with new rings/pistons/bearings? If you need 'em, get a nice RPM Performer and Demon or Holley to go along with it. Or - as Brian is doing, go for the gusto and get the EFI.

Don't believe you will be saying " that my slow-ass mill has to go" anymore [:P][:P][:P];)

Yeehah

[clayfoushee]

Just for the record, I believe a 427FE short block with aluminum heads and intake weighs in about the same as an original all cast-iron 289.

Brian, I've heard nothing but nightmare stories about 427W strokers. Maybe I've just talked to the wrong people.

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler (452.1-stroker), top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[Russ Dickey]

Clay:
Maybe so, but it just wouldn't look right in my 289FIA. A small block w/aluminum heads, intake, water pump, etc is my only consideration.

i've also heard the same with regards to 427W strokers. The speed shops around KC say that stroking a 351W past 406ci will make a bit more power, but sacrifices reliability, dependability, and driveability.

Unique 289FIA - Viking Blue

[Slither]

Russ,

I must agree with Turnpike. You have the foundation for "the" 289 car motor. I am planning an FIA car myself, and have been going through a very similar thought process as what you are going through. Yes you can get similar HP out of a stroked 351W or a smaller block , but there is a trade-off; you likely will move the performance on the 289/302 up in the RPM range... a lot. I am told that without significant expense you cannot run the hydraulic cams up in that range effectively; they simply fall off. Then there is the torque issue... I am told that the stroked 351W will blow the doors off the 289/302 (anywhere in the RPM range), and the stroked 351w can easily make BB power at under 6K RPM.

My plan was to build a stock displacement Windsor with about 410Hp from out-of-the-box components; more than enough for thrills on a daily basis. I found a super deal on a complete Eagle forged rotating assembly, so now it is a 408 instead.

For the ease of putting spring in your step, do what Turnpike says. If you need more, then the next easiest thing to do is to get a 408 stroker kit, Vic jr. heads, RPM air gap intake, carb of choice, and take that 500+ Hp out to beat the pants off the BB boys that are carrying all that extra weight. ;) (No yelling from you BB guys!) In the FIA car, this is the best compromise for the old saying that, "there is no replacement for displacement," or whatever it is.

Keep in mind that the Weavers recommend the 351W as the engine of choice for the 289 car. I have to tell you that I drove a 400+ 351W FIA car, and I smiled for all 650 miles on the trip back home, and for two weeks after! No slow-a$$ mill there :D[:P]:D Hoo-hah!

Good Luck,

Paul

[Tony Radford]

Where did the 427 Windsor get such a bad rap? I don't know anyone who's gone this route and regretted it. My engine is awesome. Even with a reasonably mild cam (lift-wise), my engine made a bit over 400 ft/lbs to the back wheels. I thrash it every time I crank it up. Folks who've driven my car and driven a multitude of others can't believe how fast it is. CHP and Keith Craft crank them out like nobody's business. If you want a little extra (noticable)performance, punch it out! It just has to be done right.

427SC, Torch Red / white stripes
427 Windsor Stroker from Southern Automotive
Delicious example of Beauty + Power.

[dmiller]

i have a 351W stroked to 408 with Vic Jr heads, roller cam, and Edlebrock FI, couldn't be more pleased.

the only thing i don't like about this setup, it idles too smoothly, no one knows what a big cam i'm using. but, one can mess with the FI, and make it lope at idle.

doug

[clayfoushee]

Russ, I agree, and I wasn't suggesting that you put a BB in a FIA. I was just responding to the weight observations somewhere above.

Tony, I'm sure there are very nice examples of 427W strokers around. I think what I've gathered is based upon semi-statistical observations related to the fact that the more you punch a block out, the probability of failure is higher over time. I've just heard more than a few 427W horror stories, but by the same token, I've heard plenty of 427FE horror stories too.

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler (452.1-stroker), top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[Russ Dickey]

This conversation is good. Maybe it would help if I posted my engine "wish list" of what I'd like my car to do. I want to:

- be able to put about 2500 miles per year on it.

- take it open tracking as well as autocrossing and maybe even to the dragstrip a few times per year.

- to be able to drive to cruise nights and car shows and even drive it to work on occassion, without overheating.

- to be able to cruise with the local Cobra club on 150+ mile cruises without a problem.

- have an engine that can produce 400 RWHP.

- have it still be somewhat period correct (ie. no power adders like superchargers or nitrous). A stroked 351W with EFI weber look-alikes is OK.

- have it do all of this reliably, or at least for 15-20K miles. I don't want to deal with a blown engine each year. Obviously, driver error on my part wouldn't be held against the engine or engine builder.

So, am I asking too much?

edited for spelling.

Unique 289FIA - Viking Blue

[Slither]

Russ,

With the exception of the racing line-item (have not really given that much thought), your list is fairly coincident with mine. Like we said before, re-work your current setup and go for it. You should be in great shape to accomplish your list.

Why don't you spill the beans on what your Windsor setup is like right now... bone stock?

I went out online and looked at Brian's EFI setup. It is really sweet looking:D, but it seems like it is about $3100 list (too high for me:()... not sure of the street price. Brian?

[KrAzEcJ]

Russ is this EFI type system your looking into?

http://www.uniquecobra.com/uploaded/KrAzEcJ/1.jpg

Thats the one for the 351W and they even make one for my 460. Very expensive though.

Unique 4279459

[nolastyankee]

All,
You are all about on the money in terms of EFI stack system costs. The stacks run in the neighborhood of what a Weber setup would go for, but you have all the benefits of EFI. It's definitely not the budget setup, but the setup and tuning possibilities are endless.

Unique 9122 - 289 FIA Cobra - The Legendary "Spence" Car

[Russ Dickey]

Slither:
My current set-up was assembled by an unknown builder for the orginal owner, and is as follows:
• Early 70's 351 Windsor + .030 overbore
• Ford Motorsport GT40 Iron Heads
• Holley 750cfm 4160 carb. P/N #3310: vacuum secondary / electric choke
• Edlebrock Performer RPM dual-plane intake #7181.
• Ford Motorsport Cam M-6250-A332:
o Duration – 290 intake / 300 exhaust
o Duration @ .050 – 214 intake / 224 exhaust
o Lift – 472 intake / 496 exhaust
o Centerlobe – 107 intake / 117 exhaust
• Mallory Unilite Distributor
• MSD 6-AL ignition

Compression is unknown. Best I can get out of it on a chassis dyno is 269rwhp. Car has Tremec 3550 and 3.31 open rear. Best 1/4 mile ET I can get is 13.50 @ 102, with near perfect launch and 2.0 60' time. Car has decent off-the-line acceleration (although still not what one would expect from a Cobra), but is truly a dog on the highway (stock '99-up Mustang GT's can beat me from a roll at 55mph). This level of performance is unacceptable. I recently read that the original FIA's could turn 12.20 quarter miles, plus hit close to 160mph top speed. THAT'S what I'm looking for...


CJ:
Yup, that's the type of EFI weber look-alikes I am talking about. I've seen a couple of different brands and set-ups, including some that have the fuel rails on the outsides of stacks.


Yankee:
I'm totally with you. For the same amount of money, I can get the look of classic webers with the performance and ease-of-tuning of modern EFI. What brand of induction did you go with? Can you fill me in on why you went with the one you did over some of the others? Some of these companies who make these things worry me. For example, there was a press release about one in the July issue of KIT CAR, and when I went to look them up on the web and call them, they had already gone out of business!




Unique 289FIA - Viking Blue

[KrAzEcJ]

I dont know if you prefer a whole different setup or work with what you already have Russ. Have you thought about stroking the 351? 393 Windsors are popular swap with the Mustang guys. Drop in a Summit 3.850 in. cast (forged if you dont mind the extra $)stroker crank a .030 overbored block Which you already have), stock length 351W rods (you have), and Trick Flow 10:1 forged pistons a Crane .574/.595 in. lift roller cam with a Crane roller lifter retrofit kit (required for the 1979-vintage non-roller block), and Trick Flow R-Series cylinder heads.
Add in a Victor Jr. 351W intake manifold to build some horsepower up top without losing low-end power. A 750 Holley (which you already have). I dont know how you have it jetted but David (a guy I know)is running 73's primary and secondary like the build article recommended. On timing he's running 35 degrees total advance. Russ, Ive seen the dyno numbers on his combo and I was impressed. I've also seen this build-up (David copied)out of a build-up article and the results were within a few horsepower of each other. It made 528 horsepower at 6,500 rpm. And torque peaked at 471 foot-pounds at 5,000 rpm. Low rpm torque was not lost to the top end power gained with this combo either. At 3000 rpm the dyno showed 378 ft.-lbs of torque. And if you wanted a little more Mustang insurance Russ, add 150 H/P shot on Nitrous! LOL Might be a thought though instead of the 302 and the expense of retrofitting it in. If your interested, when I get back home from Arizona I'l did up the article for you.



Unique 4279459

[KrAzEcJ]

Opps I forgot you said no nitrous.... But...but we could plumb a fogger system on the underside of your manifold! lol out of site out of mind hehehehe


http://www.uniquecobra.com/uploaded/KrAzEcJ/f02620NOS.jpg

Unique 4279459

[nolastyankee]

Russ,
Our stack system came from Very Cool Parts, which is a fairly well respected outfit here in the US that has been associated with Cobra's for several years. Truth be told, they import the system from Australia and don't do much more than act as a middle man and advice center. The manifold is a standard Weber intake and I truly believe that there is only 1 or 2 manufacturers of these stack systems that are sold by a bunch of different people. I know the cost seems high, but once you see the piece in person, it is worth it. Very, very impressive. We are going with the Accel DFI 7 fuel management system that will also operate the distributor and tie into our transmission. When all is said and done, this car will be as up to date as any on the lot right now...Well, almost.

Unique 9122 - 289 FIA Cobra - The Legendary "Spence" Car

[Slither]

Russ,

High two's at the rear wheel seems about right for what you describe. You can make a lot more by following what we have been talking about. What CJ describes sounds about right for his friend's setup as well.

However, I would prefer what I described, because it makes torque down lower, and still makes about the same HP, but at a lower RPM. The peak HP is 524.7 @ 5500RPM, and 541.0ft-lb @ 4600. It has 508.7ft-lb @ 3600RPM!!! This thing is a brute, and you don't have to rev it as much, making it more streetable (I have a copy of the dyno sheet on it). The main difference is in the RPM air Gap dual plane intake matched to the Vic Jr heads. This combo takes advantage of the increased cubes in the stroker (408) without jumping things as far up in the RPM range as the single plane Vic jr intake. This should get you to right about where you want at mid-400s RWHP. By the way, you can get a version of this setup ready to drop in and run from Keith Craft for about $5600, but for that price you get the cast crank. However, you can upgrade it as well. Check out his website http://www.keithcraft.com/new_site/index.html If you want a higher revver, go with something like CJ is talking about.

Paul

289 FIA (virtual)

2899464

408 Windsor

Toploader (wide)

3.07 rear

[clinck]

Some of you guys know my car. I bought it last year from Jeff Karnitz in Wisc. I have the motor that we have all benn talking about. 351W stoker [eagle]It puts out about more power than I can use. These cars are all fast in relative terms. I can't think of adding morepower to a 2400 lb car and using it. I mean, when I get on the trottle, It's hang f##kin on. What else do you want? Any motor puting out a healthy 400HP at the flywheel is more than enough power. the 351 is just the perfect motor for the 289 car. Bondurant was right.

Sundown

[clinck]

351W stroker 289FIA
http://cars.fruzzetti.org:8080/gallery/categories/Classic_K_Mustangs/sundown/media/RubyApril32004013(Small).jpg

Sundown

[spd4me]

I've got a FIA with a SA 396W Stroker, trick flow wedge heads, RPM air gap manifold and Holley 750. The only problem is with the air-gap manifold, it sits up higher on the engine and I can't use a 14" dia x 3" high air filter. I have to use a 14" x 2". The problem is I cannot get enough air for the motor to really run. If I take the air cleaner of, it feels like it runs 15%-20% faster. The calculations from K&N say I need a 14" x 3".

[nolastyankee]

Spd4Me,
What if you run one of those K&N air cleaner lids? (X-stream I believe) My Mustang has a similar clearance issue and I put on the X-stream lid and had to re-jet the carb I was getting so much more air!

Unique 9122 - 289 FIA Cobra - The Legendary "Spence" Car

[Russ Dickey]

I have heard from some folks who have used the K&N X-treme lids on cars with hood scoops, that the air rushing in from both the top and the front of the air cleaner causes too much turbulence, and actually depletes air from around the carb. This in turn caused a stumble at high speeds. Some guys got rid of the lids and the problem went away, others built a cover for the front portion of the air filter, and that fixed the problem. Never tried one myself though.

Unique 289FIA - Viking Blue

[casaleenie]

I've got the 351 W from Southern Automotive - 410 HP configuration.

What would be a conservative guess on HP to wheels?


Engine seems very adequate.

AL
2899386

[KrAzEcJ]

quote:Originally posted by casaleenie

I've got the 351 W from Southern Automotive - 410 HP configuration.

What would be a conservative guess on HP to wheels?


Engine seems very adequate.

AL
2899386


Al, this is a rough idea for you. A manual transmission loses around 15%-17% of engine horsepower and an automatic transmission loses between 20%-25%. A typical manual transmission takes around 35 horsepower where an Automatic takes around 50. To be sure put her on a dyno and see if were close.



Unique 4279459

[Russ Dickey]

I have also read in my research that the Jag diffs in our cars cause more of HP loss than a 9" or 8.8 (roughly about 5% more). The overall figures on my car with a Tremec 3550 trans equal out to be about a 20% total HP loss from the crank to the ground.

So Al, if your running the Tremec 5-spd, my guess is your putting around 320-330hp to the ground. Lucky dog. You'd run away and hide from me...

Russ

Unique 289FIA - Viking Blue

[KrAzEcJ]

Russ is right, thats why I said rough idea. The rotating components tires (size, wieght), driveline (length, material = carbon fiber, aluminum, steel), flywheel (steel vs. aluminum), transmission (manual vs. auto) rearend type, they all have their own rotational inertia which will affect the persentage of loss.

Unique 4279459