Suspension

[bomelia]

OK, I have tenative plans to do a build starting with a minimum order kit (plus some other stuff) and assemble my own suspension. Thats how folks used to do it long ago...

Front suspension: two options as I see it. Unique's custom design and the MGB crossmember/spindles/steering stuff/ approach. Are there other options?

Rear suspension: three options as I see it. Uniques overhauled Jag IRS, or find an old XKE IRS and rebuild, or find an XJ IRS and cut down to size. Are there any other options? (I like IRS btw)

FInally, how does Unique do it? Do they have a corner on the XKE market or are they using shortened XJ components?

Mike

[nolastyankee]

Mike,
Unique uses shortened XJ components. The suspension arm and half shaft dimensions will be different depending on the body style (427 vs. 289) and the wheels you use (Trigo vs 5-bolt). There are a number of different castings for the center section that all have a different angle where the housing bolts up to the chassis. You might want to have the rear end on hand before you buy the chassis, or buy the chassis un-coated in the event that you need to have it modified later.

Butch Capps does the overhauls on the Jag rear ends for Unique and you won't find any more expertise on these things anywhere else. I'd highly recommend getting the rear end from Unique. At a minimum, get the rear end yourself and have Butch rebuild it. Mike Fields also does very nice work shortening suspension arms and half-shafts. Both are top notch builders and Unique owners.

As for the front suspension, the choices you listed are the only ones that will bolt right on. Remember, there are a bunch of modifications to the MGB front end that can be done including the full replacement Hawk front end that we used.

Brian Carlson

Unique 9122 - 289 FIA Cobra - The Legendary "Spence" Car

[Mike Geddes]

Mike
If you don't go with the Unique rebuilt unit. And you fancy doing
the rebuild yourself, Concours West Industries ( if they are still
around), will sell you a rebuild kit.
They also used to supply any Jag IRS cut to fit from 48 to 61 inches.
They are located in California....Costa Mesa.
Mike

Mike Geddes

[clayfoushee]

Mike,

That's good news. Given the experience Butch Capps has with the XJ rear ends and half-shafts and the Weavers with installation, you might spend a little more, but unless you have a lot of expertise doing this, you make not ultimately save very much money.

Good luck with your decision.

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler (452.1-stroker), top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[WYT VNM]

Mike;

??? I'm going to make a prediction. You will spend more doing the suspension "the old way" than if you get the components you want from Unique. God love you if you enjoy doing everything 2 or 3 times to get it right....when you can get it right the first time from Weavers.

Yes, there are parts and pieces readily available you can cherry pick and get a good front end. Yes, Butch is fantastic on the center sections (most any kind you can think of)and others in the group can accomplish most anything with control arms and half shafts and shocks and etc. But, from experience, each task won't necessarily go the way it's planned. One example -I was going to do some things including the Jag rear YOUR way to get it MY way. I made sure I got the unit I wanted to rebuild. Let me tell you...by the time I got the pieces apart I wanted no more of it. Man, I had to rent a 3/4 impact driver to get the spindle nuts off. And that was the easy part. So, I took it in a box to Maurice and he gave me a little credit towards his posi.

I'm sure you know where your headed, towards a super build, but this is a friendly, concerned comment to not cobble....unless that's what you enjoy.

Dan Fowler, better known in Kit Car as Don Flowers. *427SC *428MSG with goodies *Tremec *3:31 posi *Ford Performance White w/light stripes *Grey interior *completed 1999

[bomelia]

Yeah, I am beginning to wonder myself. Glad to find out that the rears are modified XJ...that makes more sense. Whats a Hawk front end?

Mike

[pgermond]

CWI is still in business - http://www.geocities.com/~concourswest/ they are located in Washington state. However, I would recommend Butch unless you are into pain ;)

Phil

427 Roadster, #4279436
Southern Automotive FE
3:31 and Toploader

Roseville (N.Cal)

[gasman]

Mike, I recently modified my front end. Took out the MG steering rack and used a Flaming Rivers rack using the Mustang II pinion gear. Bump steer has been an issue to some owners. The shop doing the work managed to get bump steer set to zero. I spent a lot of money doing this, so obviously I am biased, if you want an impartial opinion ask "The Orange one". Kelly drove my car and seemed to like the way it handled. Maybe he was just being polite.

Steve Foushee
Unique #4279389

[GeorgiaSnake]

Mike are you going to save enough money to justify sourcing the parts from all over?

Randy

Unique 289 FIA #2899420
Southern Automotive 396
Team III 16's
Brilliant Silver

[nolastyankee]

Mike,
Just another quick story on the Jag rear end...My dad and I narrowed the rear end in the Spence car so that we could run Trigos. We measured the arms and half shafts and had precise dimensions for them to get shortened to. No problem, right? Just a small miscommunication between us and someone else (we both were right, but heard the same information differently) and we ended up shortening the half shafts twice. Power coated them twice. Had the U-joints pushed out twice. UPS'ed them 1000 miles each way twice...You get the picture.

Lucky this only cost $100 for us. You may not save much more than that by sourcing on your own. Unless you can do the narrowing work yourself or the rear end rebuild yourself, I can't imagine you will save much money.

The Concours West route is something to consider...Those rear ends are simply art!

Check my build folder for details on the Hawk front end, or check the Hawk Cars website. Let me know if you have more questions...

Regardless of your choice the decisions are yours and the build is an absolute ball. The hardest part will be the color choice!

Brian Carlson

Unique 9122 - 289 FIA Cobra - The Legendary "Spence" Car

[clayfoushee]

Steve,

In fairness, it's important that the record is clear once and for all, please, lest people get the sent in the wrong direction. Mike is asking about front and rear suspensions, not steering racks.

The "MG steering rack" is not the same thing as the MG front suspension. The MG rack is just one piece of the front suspension. Older Uniques had the entire MG front end. The new Unique front suspension, which you had, still includes the MG steering rack.

CSX and Kirkham's also still use the MG steering rack, and Tom's Motorsports in LV, who helped you out with your alignment problems AFTER you changed the rack, still likes that rack just fine.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounded, in your last post above, as if you were equating your bump steer problems to the MG steering rack, again. Tom would tell anyone, you can get bump-steer to near zero with the MG rack too. After you installed the new rack, you had other "issues" related to alignment, front and rear (particularly rear-end alignment), but I'm glad your new steering rack is working out so well, and your car is finally performing well.

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler (452.1-stroker), top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[pgermond]

Oh Sh#&..... we're not going down this road again, are we[?]:(;)

Phil

427 Roadster, #4279436
Southern Automotive FE
3:31 and Toploader

Roseville (N.Cal)

[clayfoushee]

Phil,

I hope not, and I don't know why it was raised again, but if we are, it needs to include the whole story.:)

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler (452.1-stroker), top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[bomelia]

What road is that?

Nah!!! Never mind...I have enough controversy in my life as it is...and I did not think this thread would lead to more!!:)

Can the suspensions (front and rear) be bought after the fact and at comparable prices?

Engine goes to the shop next week. I am trying to spread the cost out a bit. Wife/kids/college funds/yada yada...not a lot of room for expensive hobbies...but I do not want to wait anymore.

Mike

[clayfoushee]

Mike,

I forgot to mention that the guy who built Steve's car, for his own use before he sold it, was a "do-it-yourself-er" who had no clue how to "do it." Steve would be the first to admit that, and that he had to live with builder's mistakes until he finally got it right.

He chose to go a different path than most here and spent a lot of money, but it he did apparently get it right.


Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler (452.1-stroker), top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[Naumoff]

If you look at the pricing you get a pretty good discount for buying a deluxe pallet kit.
You are going to be busy hunting down little stuff to be worrying about a suspension.
I read on other forums about high end replicas and it seem that a good alignment(front and REAR) is the key for these kits.

Thinking of that... Clay, do you know any good alignment guys in the area?
Just my 2 cents.
Tony

Unique 427 #4279480 427s/o Nascar toploader 3.31 Jag IRS

[eliminator]

Yes you can buy it from Unique "piece by piece". It will end up costing you quite a bit more:(. Your better off getting the Deluxe Pallet Kit, pay a little more now or a whole lot later on.
After many years of building cars and motorcycles with the "piece by piece" mentality I did the Cobra a little different. I did it the way I wanted it the first time, more money up front, but much, much easier
and a more satisfing build, and cheaper in the long run[^]. It only took me 55 years to realize this;).


Rick
#4279405

[gasman]

Mike, as I said if you want an impartial opinion, call or PM Bitten.

Steve Foushee
Unique #4279389

[eliminator]

Steve,

I think you are still missing the point, this is not about "bump steer", its about a front end, all aspects of the front suspension.

Rick
#4279405

[clayfoushee]

Tony, I'd like to find one. I was fortunate in that my car was set up properly when I bought it, from the west coast.

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler (452.1-stroker), top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[gasman]

quote:Originally posted by eliminator

Steve,

I think you are still missing the point, this is not about "bump steer", its about a front end, all aspects of the front suspension.

Rick
#4279405


Yes Rick, I believe I understand we are discussing ALL aspects of the front end. Got it. ;)

Steve Foushee
Unique #4279389

[rdorman]

If you are on a super tight budget, you can just rebuild a MGB front end and bolt it on. Go the GM rotor and caliper route and there you have it. It can always do upgrades as money and time allows. You could take a similar approach on the rear end and if it checks out to be in good condition, save the center section rebuild for later. These things do last a long time. I would of course do the basics, seals, u joints etc. Fabbing up the rear trailing arms is cake. Have a pro shorted the arms and shafts.
Rick

[nolastyankee]

If you are going to buy all the pieces separately, I would at least make sure that you buy the center section with the car so that the pinion angle of the mounting plate can be set up when the chassis is made. Otherwise you will have to find the exact center section among as many as six different castings (according to Butch) or have your brand new chassis cut and modified.

Alan told me that when they build a car, a rear end and a frame are matched all the way through the build.

Because of this multiple castings issue, our car now has a custom machined shim between the chassis and the differential...I would much prefer to have had it right the first time.

Brian Carlson

Unique 9122 - 289 FIA Cobra - The Legendary "Spence" Car

[clayfoushee]

Brian,

Thanks.........that's a very interesting and new piece of data I wasn't aware of.

Clay

'98 Unique #9299, 427FE side oiler (452.1-stroker), top-loader (close), 3.31 rear

Annapolis, MD

[bomelia]

Well, I actually was aware of that! Unique will not sell frame and body separate. They are paired front to end. I did notice in the kit options section a $7K rolling chassis. Not sure what is up with that.

Mike

[GeorgiaSnake]

Mike why not call the Weavers - then go visit.

Randy

Unique 289 FIA #2899420
Southern Automotive 396
Team III 16's
Brilliant Silver

[bomelia]

When I go, it will be to buy something. Right now, I am trying to decide on my approach.

Mike

[bittentoo]

OK, let me chime in here.

I'm not sure just what all Steve did to car, but the 2 things I noticed immediately and improved the ride of his car was how easily and with very little effort the car steered with the new steering rack. Ours takes considerably more effort.

And the ride. Switching to the Blistines(sp) shocks & springs was a great upgrade. Took the harshness out of the ride. I believe that Rick also made this change and is one that I would like to do.

Kelly

[bomelia]

Well, I found an XKE IRS off of a 67 E Type 2+2. 3.8 gear ratio...wire wheel hubs (will have to swap those out). Do not know if it is worth it ($1200 plus freight shipping).

Also, for the front end, using MGB parts, what are the applicable model years? My understanding for the steering column is 62-69?? Is this true for the rest of the stuff?

Mike

[nolastyankee]

Mike,
I would say the value depends on the condition of the center section and whether or not the parts will bolt straight in. Figure $500-$600 for a differential rebuild if you can re-use all the parts, an Auburn will add $450, and a ring an pinion $150, shipping to Butch is $75-$100 each way. Figure a couple hundred for narrowing, plus shipping.

I have seen good XJ units consistently sell for $400-600, which would put an entire freshened, narrowed rear end in the low to mid $2k range. If you can knock at least $700 off this process with the XKE rear end, you may be OK.

As for the MGB front end, you may want to consider getting the Hawk front end and not even bother going with old stuff. All you need is the Hawk conversion (A-arms, shocks, fasteners), a MGB crossmember ($50 or less from the junkyard), 2 lower pivots ($75 each new, less than half used), and 2 kingpins. If you are resourceful, you should be able to get all this second hand and clean it up for $1600. A Wilwood brake conversion will add $500. Junkyard Aspen/Volare brakes will be really cheap if you can find them. All you would need then is the MG rack. Again, at this point you are into $2000-$2500 where the Unique front end all complete is $3000.

Brian Carlson

Unique 9122 - 289 FIA Cobra - The Legendary "Spence" Car

[JeepSnake]

Another thought to consider - not technical, but VERY important nowadays - freight/shipping costs!

Chasing parts on this little project (non-Cobra) I'm working on has cost me dearly. Not being able to source all parts from one vendor is killing me money-wise. On multiple occasions in the last several months since fuel went up, shipping has cost me more than the parts! :( But, when only one vendor carries a particular emblem, and only another vendor carries a particular wiring loom clip... it adds up in a hurry.

Just something to throw into the mix!

Zach Butterworth
Apple Mt. Cobra Pit Crew
(Mom & Dad's 427)

[bomelia]

Brian,

Do you have a link to the MG site that talks about Hawk?

Mike

[nolastyankee]

http://www.hoyle-engineering.co.uk/

http://www.hawkcars.co.uk/

http://www.theautoist.com/coil-over_suspension.htm

Brian Carlson

Unique 9122 - 289 FIA Cobra - The Legendary "Spence" Car

[bomelia]

Will a 1978 crossmember work (mgb)? Sounds like all I need is the crossmember...hawk supplies the rest?

Mike

[nolastyankee]

You will need a crossmember, lower axle pivots, and 2 kingpins. Don't forget the brakes once you are done. I don't know what year crossmembers work or don't but I really do not think there are any differences. All you will need are the frame locating points and the upper shock mounting pads.

If you are serious about the Hawk suspension, let me know and I'll give you more information on purchasing it. By going through a MG dealer in California you'll pay the same price, but get upgraded fasteners, all urethane bushings, and the beam modification parts.

Both Rick Dorman and us have done a Wildwood brake conversion to the MG kingpin which is really nice. Again, if this is a route that you really want to travel down, let me know and we can walk you through it. You'll need some machining ability or access to a machine shop. It's not hard, but not a bolt on either.

Brian Carlson

Unique 9122 - 289 FIA Cobra - The Legendary "Spence" Car

[bomelia]

Gonna have to take you up on that. Definitely going Wildwood and now I want something like the Hawk. My front end is shipping next week.

Thanks for your help,

Mike