Brake & Oil Line Assistance

[Ric S.]

Good day everyone,

Given that Alan is out running around with Mickey, I turn to you for guidance.

1. Brake bleeding: the front calipers have four fittings. I am ready to spill the Dot 5 into the master c. and bleed the systems. Do I have to bleed all four per wheel or just a top fitting? Just the top on the back calipers, right?

2. I am installing the remote oil system (SA 406) and after staring at the side of the block where the lines connect for a few hours with no corresponding action......how do all of those lines fit? Between the oil pressure sending line, the two oil fittings and the brake line, a little advice is appreciated. Does someone have a photo of the setup I can follow?

Any advice would be apprciated.

Ric

[Naumoff]

Ric,
On the Wilwoods Bleed them all. Bottoms first. On the rears just the tops.

Here is a diagram of the oil system. If you anot running a cooler just run the line that is going to the cooler to the remote filter.

[pgermond]

Tony hit the nail on the head!

[Ric S.]

Naumoff,

Thanks for the very helpful diagram and brake feedback. I also need to see or or get a better idea of how one literally routes the oil lines off the block. I am running a remote oil cooler and it appears extremely tight down on the block where the two oil lines and the oil pressure line come out. How does one route them around the brake line and steering column forward to the cooler run and also the one going up to the filter. Looks very tight.

Thanks

[homer]

I also have a SA406 - there is just enough room to attach te 90deg hose ends to the block plate - bill parham had told me to use stainless an/npt straight fitting into the plate to which the 90deg hose end is attached.

[pgermond]

Ric,

I'll try and post some photos tomorrow.

[Naumoff]

I ran my lines a little different than the Weavers do. Here are some pictures. It is tight between the block and the frame.
It has the straight fittings off the block and 90s on the hoses. I have to put the top hose on first and tighten it up before the bottom one goes on. I will try to find a pic of that.

[COBRAGAR]

read the wilwood brake bleeding procedure in frt you need to only bleed the 2 top bleeder screws per axles and not the bottom.

[eliminator]

On the Wildwood Brakes, do all 4, not 2.

[COBRAGAR]

i,m just saying whats on the the wilwood questions and answer page you have 4 bleeder screws per side it quotes to only bleed the 2 top bleeder screws per side . thats my understanding not here to stir things up.

[pgermond]

Ric,

I don't think there is any "right" way to route the lines.... just do what works. I posted some photos in my Gallery on CC because they won't fit here due to file size. These are the links for your viewing:
Block plate looking from the rear - http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=44229&cat=500&ppuser=15680
Remote oil filter - http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=44230&cat=500&ppuser=15680

I hope this helps & good luck!

[Naumoff]

RIC S.,

My oil block looks like Phil"s except the fittings are black.:D

[pgermond]

I need to replace my brake fluid (front and rear). Is there a way to do it without going through the whole process of disconnecting the brake bias bar (I hate crawling into that Foot box!!! :mad: )

Thanks in advance for any tips.

[TurnpikeBoy]

Phil, either use a MityVac and pull fluid thru the lines or get yourself a power bleeder system and push it thru. Either one doesn't involve moving the balance bar; however, you MUST keep close watch on the reservoir when you use a MityVac or you'll pull all the fluid out and new air in......yep, done that, been there.....


-Roger

[RJacobsen]

Ric I know your thread has to do with the brakes but I thought I would offer a word of caution concerning Dot 5 fluid and hydrolic clutch throw out bearings. Not sure of your setup but I'm pretty sure Dot 5 will ruin the seals in most HTB's

[Jerry Cowing]

Rick S,

If my memory serves me correctly, I don't believe DOT 5 is recommended for your rear Jag calipers or for your front Wilwoods. If I remember correctly, DOT 5 will cause the seals to deteriorate. I believe you need to use DOT 3 compatible fluids either regular or synthetic DOT 3 formula.

Not totally sure about this, but you may want to talk to Wilwood and Jaguar before putting DOT 5 in your system.

[Ric S.]

Very good feedback on the brake fluid grade. The last thing I want to do now is make that level of a mistake. So no 5. I am sure my notes from picking the car up have Dot 5 for both but I was so giddy about getting the car they could said Dot 3 and I missed it. I remember talking about Dot 5 that day but where else would you use it??? I will back track with the Weavers.

Great feedback from you all.

[brfutbrian]

theres 4 bleeders on each wilwood calipers so the caliper will work on either side of the car. you only need to bleed the top bleeders ,,,,,,,,,, unless the car is upside down. later , brian

[JeepSnake]

Phil,

When flushing the fluid on the FIA last summer, we borrowed a brand new Motive power bleeder from the Weavers. It works pretty well, but the odds of getting brake fluid everywhere are still pretty high. A few tips:

1) check the hose to master cylinder adapter plate seal. As delivered, it had NPT threads with no tape or dope of any sort on them. Some Permatex solved that problem.

2) carefully thread the adapter plate on the master cylinder. It has a tendency to partially crossthread, and you'll think you have it on tight - until fluid starts oozing out.

3) route the hose from the bleeder to the master cylinder under the wheelwell and up into the engine compartment. Do NOT route it over the fender. Fluid WILL leak, and it WILL run back down along the outside of the hose and onto the paint.

Other than that, it's just like a pump-up garden sprayer. We used the Valvoline DOT 3 synthetic stuff.

Oh, and by the way, let me just take this moment to share my feelings about how much I absolutely despise bleeding brakes. Yes, my Cobra brothers, brake fluid is an abomination, created in the fiery pit by demons bent on destroying paint jobs everywhere and wreaking havoc on finely detailed firewalls! Can I get an "amen?" :) All joking aside, I'd rather go to the dentist than have to crack into a brake system's piping. For some reason, I never have a problem working on the systems in our daily drivers. But, get into something where I want to protect the paint, and everything starts going wrong. :(

[pgermond]

Thanks for the suggestions..... I guess there's no "easy way" to do it.

[rdorman]

No need to disconnect the balance bar. Bleed one side front and rear at the same time. You could do it diagonal if you really wanted to be different! I never bleed the bottom bleeders... to each their own. I always 'bench' bleed the master cylinders when ever they are first installed. I just use the basic cup and hose at the calipers that you can make yourself or get dirt cheap at any parts store. Crack the bleeders only enough to let fluid out (to much and you will suck air around the bleeder threads on the return stroke, a little grease on the threads can help prevent this but I don't need it). Pump the pedal slowly with your hand and don't let the master cylinders run dry. Yep, no DOT 5... 3 or 4 is fine. Wilwood 570 is a good fluid, widely available and won't break the bank. You will have no trouble!

I don't recall if someone mentioned it our not but spin the oil pump with a drill to fill up all those lines and coolers before you fire it up.

[JeepSnake]

Not to hijack or go off on a tangent, but talk of breaking in an engine made me remember a video I saw some time back on Discovery or TLC.

Engine shop had a break-in stand with an electric motor for setting up engines before they were ever fired the first time. They were spinning the engine electrically to lash the valves, break-in the cam, etc. Once that was done, then they would install the carb, fire the engine, and make the other adjustments.

The thing that shocked me was how much noise the valvetrain made. I had always read and been told that it was a huge component of an engine's noise signature, but hearing the engine turn without any combustion, induction, or exhaust noise was amazing. A very, very loud buzzing from the valves, etc.!

[Naumoff]

Thanks for the suggestions..... I guess there's no "easy way" to do it.

Hire a midget.:D

[Naumoff]

Wilwood 570 for Brakes and HTOB. It is DOT 3. Good Stuff, No worries.

[pgermond]

Hire a midget.:D

Tony,

To be social correct, I believe they are called little people nowadays :D I'm saving the best for last - I replaced my clutch slave cylinder, replaced the nylon oil pressure line with copper, changed the oil and filter, changed the differential fluids....... and tomorrow....... change brake fluid :(

Sorry for high-jacking your topic Ric..... you'll get used to this group doing that from time-to-time ;)

[Ric S.]

Every time one of my threads get high-jacked I learn even more about the building process than just my original question. You guys keep this up and I may just be ready by Homecoming. And, imagine my OMG meter had I filled the lines with DOT 5 and then asked the question !!!!

Thanks all.

[spd4me]

Dot 5 is a silicone brake fluid that is used in show cars or collector cars that aren't driven to prevent water from getting in lines and rusting. Isn't recommended in daily drivers. There is some deterorating connection between silicone and real rubber which many of the British cars use.
Bob

[Naumoff]

Dot 5 is a silicone brake fluid that is used in show cars or collector cars that aren't driven to prevent water from getting in lines and rusting. Isn't recommended in daily drivers. There is some deterorating connection between silicone and real rubber which many of the British cars use.
Bob

We had a problem with rubber o-rings in the plumbing trade. Some rubber is impregnated with a lubricant and if you introduce a different type of lubricant( say a petroleum based) to the seal it will have a reaction.
O-rings would swell up and keep a spout from moving.

On my clutch m/c and HTOB I can flush the line from the bleed on the HTOB. Just keep pouring brake fluid in the m/c. I have done the same on Foosh's clutch slave for his Cobra.
You still have to Bleed it to get it to work but the Wilwood master cylinders will let brake fluid run right through them.

This thread has reminded me that while I have down time on my Cobra to go ahead and change my brake fluid.

[Naumoff]

Tony,

To be social correct, I believe they are called little people nowadays :D I'm saving the best for last - I replaced my clutch slave cylinder, replaced the nylon oil pressure line with copper, changed the oil and filter, changed the differential fluids....... and tomorrow....... change brake fluid :(

Sorry for high-jacking your topic Ric..... you'll get used to this group doing that from time-to-time ;)

Now I have to be socially correct too. I am a plumber, we a social outcast.
I don't think this can apply to me. Besides say midget and try not to smile.
It is one of those words that are fun to say.:D

[Brent]

Probable more useless info than anyone needs. I scanned a shop manual I have on brake systems.


SILICONE BASED FLUID
Fluids containing Silicone are generally used in military type vehicles and because Silicone based fluids will not damage painted surfaces they are also somewhat common in show cars.

Silicone-based fluids are regarded as DOT 5 fluids. They are highly compressible and can give the driver a feeling of a spongy pedal. The higher the brake system temperature the more the compressibility of the fluid and this increases the feeling of a spongy pedal.

Silicone based fluids are non-hydroscopic meaning that they will not absorb or mix with water. When water is present in the brake system it will create a water/fluid/water/fluid situation. Because water boils at approximately 212º F, the ability of the brake system to operate correctly decreases, and the steam created from boiling water adds air to the system. It is important to remember that water may be present in any brake system. Therefore silicone brake fluid lacks the ability to deal with moisture and will dramatically decrease a brake systems performance.

POLYGLYCOL ETHER BASED FLUIDS
Fluids containing Poly glycol ethers are regarded as DOT 3, 4, and DOT 5.1. These type fluids are hydroscopic meaning they have an ability to mix with water and still perform adequately. However, water will drastically reduce the boiling point of fluid. In a passenger car this is not an issue. In a racecar it is a major issue because as the boiling point decreases the performance ability of the fluid also decreases.

Poly glycol type fluids are 2 times less compressible than silicone type fluids, even when heated. Less compressibility of brake fluid will increase pedal feel. Changing fluid on a regular basis will greatly increase the performance of the brake system.

FLUID SPECIFICATIONS All brake fluids must meet federal standard #116. Under this standard is three Department of Transportation (DOT) minimal specifications for brake fluid. They are DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5.1 (for fluids based with Polyalkylene Glycol Ether) and DOT 5 (for Silicone based fluids).

MINIMAL boiling points for these specifications are as follows:



Dry Boiling Point Wet Boiling Point

DOT 3 401ºF 284º F

DOT 4 446º F 311º F
DOT 5 500º F 356º F
DOT 5.1 518º F 375º F







Racing brake fluids always exceeds the DOT specifications for dry boiling points. Wet boiling points generally remain the same.

DOT 3 VS. DOT 4 and 5.1
AFCO's 570º brake fluid is a DOT 3 type fluid. However, it has a dry boiling point that is 52º higher than DOT 5.1 specifications, 124º higher than DOT 4 specifications and 169º higher than DOT 3 specifications. AFCO's 570º fluid meets or exceeds all DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 lubrication, corrosion protection and viscosity specifications.

AFCO's 570º racing fluid meets but does not exceed federal standards for wet boiling point specification; therefore, its classification is DOT 3. Because AFCO's 570º fluid is intended for use in racing type brake systems that undergo frequent fluid changes, exceeding federal standards for wet boiling points is of little concern. Racing brake fluids always exceeds the DOT specifications for dry boiling points. Wet boiling points generally remain the same.

WET VS. DRY BOILING POINT
The term boiling point when used regarding brake fluid means the temperatures that brake fluid will begin to boil.

WET BOILING POINT
The minimum temperatures that brake fluids will begin to boil when the brake system contains 3% water by volume of the system.

DRY BOILING POINT
The temperatures that brake fluid will boil with no water present in the system.

MOISTURE IN THE BRAKE SYSTEM
Water/moisture can be found in nearly all brake systems. Moisture enters the brake system in several ways. One of the more common ways is from using old or pre-opened fluid. Keep in mind, that brake fluid draws in moisture from the surrounding air. Tightly sealing brake fluid bottles and not storing them for long periods of time will help keep moisture out. When changing or bleeding brake fluid always replace master cylinder caps as soon as possible to prevent moisture from entering into the master cylinder. Condensation, (small moisture droplets) can form in lines and calipers. As caliper and line temperatures heat up and then cool repeatedly, condensation occurs, leaving behind an increase in moisture/water. Over time the moisture becomes trapped in the internal sections of calipers, lines, master cylinders, etc. When this water reaches 212º F the water turns to steam. Many times air in the brake system is a result of water that has turned to steam. The build up of steam will create air pressure in the system, sometimes to the point that enough pressure is created to push caliper pistons into the brake pad. This will create brake drag as the rotor and pads make contact and can also create more heat in the system. Diffusion is another way in that water/moisture may enter the system.

Diffusion occurs when over time moisture enters through rubber brake hoses. The use of hoses made from EPDM materials (Ethlene-Propylene-Diene-Materials) will reduce the amount of diffusion OR use steel braided brake hose with a non-rubber sleeve (usually Teflon) to greatly reduce the diffusion process.

THINGS TO REMEMBER
Brake fluids dry boiling point is more important then wet boiling point when used in a racing brake system.
Passenger cars very rarely will undergo a brake fluid change making the wet boiling point more important.
Racing brake system fluid is changed often and a system with fresh fluid will most likely not contain water.
Because of this, racers should be concerned with the dry boiling point.
Racing fluid exceeds DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 dry boiling point specifications.
Never use silicone based fluids in racing brake systems.
Using racing brake fluid will increase performance of the braking system.
Never reuse fluid. º Never mix types or brands of brake fluid.
Use smaller fluid containers that can be used quicker.
If fluid remains in container be sure to tightly seal and do not store for long periods of time.
Purge system (complete drain) and replace fluid often.
Immediately replace master cylinder reservoir cap following any maintenance.


Blah, Blah, Blah

[pgermond]

Aye corrumba........... Brent, that was a cut-n-paste job right? You didn't type all that, did you????

[Brent]

"I scanned a shop manual I have on brake systems."

Heck no.
I am way too lazy and type too slow to do that.

[davebetts]

I would strongly recomend using the Wilwood 600 EXP fluid (has a boiling point of 626 degrees). I know that sounds like overkill, but the temperatures under the cylinder jugs (x3) get unbelievably hot. I've personally cooked a master clutch cylinder because I didn't remember to replace regular DOT 3 fluid, when I did replace the fluilds in the two brake masters.
Also made a simple heat sheild and installed to the footbox (between the headers and the masters. That idea comes directly from this site, don't remember who. Do the search thing.
Good luck and do it right the first time - I didn't. But, I'm learning from this great forum of information.
Thank you everyone!

[pgermond]

Done!!! :) A little sore from crawling around in that foot box, but done. When all was finished and the car was back down on the ground I warmed her up and checked the timing (hasn't been running quite right). Holy cow! The timing was off by 10 degrees!!! Reset it adjusted the idle and holy smokes, it's like a new car :eek:

I use DOT 3 and fab/installed a heat shield when I built my car. I've attached a couple of links to give you an idea of how it can be done.

http://www.uniquecobra.com/uploaded/pgermond/Master%20cylinder%20heat%20shield.JPG
http://www.uniquecobra.com/uploaded/pgermond/Master%20cylinders%20heat%20shield.JPG

Supposed to be 77 tomorrow...... wonder what I'll do? :shift: